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Re: Hanoi Jane: Scapegoat or Traitor ?

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  • Re: Hanoi Jane: Scapegoat or Traitor ?

    Regarding the April, 2006 issue of Vietnam which featured a story on Jane Fonda in the Personality Department, I would just like to thank the editors for running the article. Fonda's behavior and activities during the war are an historical aspect and the controversy the staff must have known would result gives a certain credibility to the magazine when it presents an article that cuts against the grain.

    Basically the article makes the claim that Jane Fonda was unfairly picked out of a crowd of celebritys who protested the war and that she apologized and her actions got far more spotlight than deserved. In a following issue (letters)the author defended his piece and criticised the negative feedback from readers over the piece. In fact he stated every bit of reader feedback was negative.

    Well, I was a baby when all this was going on, so while I have always heard about how hated Jane Fonda was, it had always been more of an curiousity thing for me more than emotional. Not anymore, both my uncles were Air Force pilots, one flew F 105s over N. Vietnam and the other transports in the South. Seeing that picture of Jane Fonda manning an AA gun made me hate her more than anything else could have. Did that act constitute a capital offense ? Maybe. But it was certainly an act of treason.

  • #2
    I was a teenager and young adult while the Nam was going on. If I had so wished, I could have volunteered and served. I did not choose to do it. No one has ever accused Ms Fonda of being overly endowed in mental abilities. Indeed, her career was based on how well she looked on camera.

    Each time we have armed conflict, we have some people that dissent. Some are articulate and talk a good show. Some do not think real hard and let others do the thinking for them. I have never been impressed by Ms Fonda's choice of movies, with exception to Barbarella and that Western she made with Lee Marvin.

    For whatever reasons she had, Ms Fonda decided the war was a terrible thing and went out of her way to prove so. She did more damage to the anti-war cause than anyone else did. One could argue that a deliberate mole from the far right could hardly have done less damage.

    Now all I feel about her is pity for an aging actress that can't find roles anymore.

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    • #3
      I don't feel that her apology was sincere. I get the impression that the only thing that she is sorry for is posing for the pictures with the AA gun, and it was more about her image than regret for her actions.

      It's something that Fonda now says she regrets. "I will go to my grave regretting that. The image of Jane Fonda, Barbarella, Henry Fonda's daughter, just a woman sitting on a enemy aircraft gun, was a betrayal," says Fonda.

      "It was like I was thumbing my nose at the military. And at the country that gave me privilege. It was the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine. I don't thumb my nose at this country. I care deeply about American soldiers."

      But many of those soldiers say if there’s one thing they will never forgive her for, it’s that she met with a group of seven POWs when she was in North Vietnam, giving the appearance of a staged event at their expense.

      "Was that a lapse of judgment?" asks Stahl.

      "No. There are hundreds of American delegations that had met with POWs. It was not uncommon at all," says Fonda.

      "Does that make it right?" asks Stahl.

      "It doesn't make it wrong," says Fonda.

      "But the Vietnamese used it as propaganda, to say, 'Look how humane we are,'” says Stahl.

      "Well, both sides were using propaganda, were using the POWs for propaganda," says Fonda. "I don't think there was anything wrong with it. It's not something that I will apologize for."

      Nor does she apologize for making broadcasts on Radio Hanoi. "Our government was lying to us, and men were dying because of it," she says. "And I felt that I had to do anything that I could to expose the lies, and help end the war. That was my goal."

      She asked the Vietnamese if she could make the broadcasts, tapes which 60 Minutes found at the National Archives in Washington.

      Fonda went on Radio Hanoi at least 10 times, speaking directly to U.S. pilots, after she had toured the bombed-out countryside and visited hospitals full of injured civilians.

      Was she trying to get soldiers to stop the bombing, and disobey their orders? "No. I know that you cannot ask a soldier to disobey orders," says Fonda. "You're not the one that pays the consequences."

      She once said: "I beg you to consider what you are doing. The hospitals are filled with babies, and women and old people. Can you justify what you are doing?"

      "Doesn't that sound like you're asking them to stop what they're doing?" asks Stahl.

      "I'm asking them to consider it. I'm asking them to think about it," says Fonda.

      "But the soldiers who call you 'Hanoi Jane' and are still furious at you, say it’s one thing to protest here in the country, and another thing to go over there, where our soldiers were, you know, in harm’s way, and go into the enemy camp," says Stahl. "I mean, it wasn’t like you were saying, 'Richard Nixon, stop this.' You were saying [it] to the pilots."

      "Listen, we'd been saying to Richard Nixon, 'Stop this' for eight years. Millions of people had protested. You know, students had been shot at Kent State and still it went on," says Fonda. "It needed what looks now to be unbelievably controversial things. That’s what I felt was needed."

      "When you hear of this intense fury at you … 30 year later, does it hurt you?" asks Stahl.

      "It makes me sad. It makes me sad, because I think that it's ill-placed anger," says Fonda. "I understand that I'm a lightning rod, and I know why the anger is there."

      "What if a young, famous actress went to Iraq, hooked up with the insurgents today, and went on their radio and spoke to our soldiers over there?" asks Stahl.

      "I wouldn’t like it. I don’t think it’s the same situation at all," says Fonda. "When I went there, we had been involved in the war. We had been fighting in Vietnam for eight years. The majority of Americans opposed the war, the majority of Congress opposed the war. It was a desperate time."
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      • #4
        Isn't she both a traitor and a scapegoat?
        She is a traitor for reasons that have already been described, yet she is a scapegoat because however supportive she was of North Vietnam, I doubt if she is the reason the Americans lost.
        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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        • #5
          Well, what she did is quite clear, isn't it. She's a traitor.

          She's not a reason the US 'lost' (remember, the US did not lose - the Congress abandoned South Vietnam.)
          Last edited by Ogukuo72; 14 Sep 07, 05:02.

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          • #6
            Abject stupidity is not a defense for her actions.

            The woman was only good for one thing, and that sure didn't require her to have brains.

            Now she's old, so what.

            When she dies, I won't miss her like I do other big names of my youth.

            Hell I'm not even American, and I hate her. That says enough about how incredibly stupid her actions were.

            I learned a loooooong time ago, that sorry won't always fix some things. She needs to accept that, and accept that she will never get to be the Jane she was before her actions again.
            Life is change. Built models for decades.
            Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
            I didn't for a long time either.

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            • #7
              Didn't read the article, and know only some of the facts. But I'll say this:

              There's a lot to be said for forgiveness (regardless of your religious beliefs).

              Hanging on to anger or hatred hurts you and makes your life a little more miserable. It probably has no effect on the object (or scapegoat) of your feelings.

              Besides, who doesn't have a skeleton or two in the closet? What adult doesn't look back and blush at (or get sick at the thought of) some of what he did in the folly of his youth?

              When you can give others the freedom to live their own lives their own way, you get the same freedom for yourself. But when you get mentally or emotionally involved in other people's problems or issues or errors or violations of human decency, you end up filling your own mind with that junk.

              To each his own, but as for me, I'm not going to go around hating Hitler and bin Laden or bearing a grudge against the likes of Jane Fonda either. Life's too short, and their business is not my business. It's all I can do to live my own life as best I can.
              --Patrick Carroll


              "Do all you have agreed to do, and do not encroach on other persons or their property." (Richard Maybury)

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              • #8
                She knew exactly what she was doing and she loved every minute of it. Ask any POW how they feel about her.

                Fonda was a traitor, period. To me, who served in that war, she will always and forever be Hanoi Jane, the greatest traitor to the nation since the Rosenbergs.
                Last edited by Mountain Man; 14 Sep 07, 12:38.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MountainMan View Post
                  She knew exactly what she was doiong and she loved every minute of it. Ask any POW how they feel about her.

                  Fonda was a traitor, period. To me, who served in that war, she will always and forever be Hanoi Jane, the greatest traitor to the nation since the Rosenbergs.
                  You and I are in 100% agreement on this subject...So she must be a traitor...
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                  • #10
                    In 1995 The Wall Stree Journal ran an interview from Stephen Young a human rights attorney who interviewed Bui Tin who had been a Colonel in the NVA and served with General Giap. He had defected. Here is a quote from him in regards to Jane Fonda. Below is a link with the entire interview.

                    "We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us."

                    http://www.grunt.com/scuttlebutt/cor...tnam/north.asp

                    "Get three coffins ready" The Man With No Name

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                      You and I are in 100% agreement on this subject...So she must be a traitor...
                      I probably should mark my calendar somehow...

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                      • #12
                        I am sick of this Hypocrisy

                        People who don't live in the same world as the rest of us should not have the right to pontificate on how we should live or what we should believe.

                        My electric Bill is less than $30 a month. Albert Gore spent over $30,000 on his utilities yet he is self righteous enough to tell the rest of us we have to conserve.

                        George Clooney buys a Villa in Italy and renovates the entire thing to his liking. The Average Italian cannot get a building permit to enlarge a window in his home, much less a major renovation, yet George Loony sings the praises of the humanity of Italian Socialism.

                        Jane Fonda tells us that we should all "hope to be communists", yet she is a wealthy American who never wanted for anything. She never lived in a country with a communist system, nor had to give up anything to such a system.

                        These people are hypocrites and we shouldn't have to listen to them. I don't know how anyone can give them any respect or think they have anything intelligent to say. They don't have to live under the same limitations and restraints as the rest of us, yet they are perfectly willing to tell us how to live and heap more limitations and restraints upon us.

                        All of these kinds of people are scum, Jane just happened to also break the law. The law should have applied to her and she should have been prosecuted.
                        Last edited by Miss Saigon; 14 Sep 07, 13:58.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Patrick Carroll View Post
                          Didn't read the article, and know only some of the facts. But I'll say this:

                          There's a lot to be said for forgiveness (regardless of your religious beliefs).

                          Hanging on to anger or hatred hurts you and makes your life a little more miserable. It probably has no effect on the object (or scapegoat) of your feelings.

                          Besides, who doesn't have a skeleton or two in the closet? What adult doesn't look back and blush at (or get sick at the thought of) some of what he did in the folly of his youth?

                          When you can give others the freedom to live their own lives their own way, you get the same freedom for yourself. But when you get mentally or emotionally involved in other people's problems or issues or errors or violations of human decency, you end up filling your own mind with that junk.

                          To each his own, but as for me, I'm not going to go around hating Hitler and bin Laden or bearing a grudge against the likes of Jane Fonda either. Life's too short, and their business is not my business. It's all I can do to live my own life as best I can.
                          Noble sentiments Patrick, but, respect is something earned, it's not available on a shelf.
                          It's nice to be able to forgive, but the person has to be wanting forgiveness, and actually deserve it.
                          Yes we all have skeletons, and I will bear mine, and she will bear hers.
                          There's turning the other cheek, and there's being a doormat.
                          I'm not emotionally scarred merely willing to remember.

                          life is indeed short, which is why I make a point of discarding the trash from it.

                          Jane, is trash, and she should have been asked to leave the country she betrayed a long time ago, and asked not to return till she was deserving of it.
                          I'd rather she had an apartment in Hanoi, where she belongs.
                          Life is change. Built models for decades.
                          Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
                          I didn't for a long time either.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Patrick Carroll View Post
                            Didn't read the article, and know only some of the facts. But I'll say this:

                            There's a lot to be said for forgiveness (regardless of your religious beliefs).

                            Hanging on to anger or hatred hurts you and makes your life a little more miserable. It probably has no effect on the object (or scapegoat) of your feelings.

                            Besides, who doesn't have a skeleton or two in the closet? What adult doesn't look back and blush at (or get sick at the thought of) some of what he did in the folly of his youth?
                            Yes, there is something to forgiveness. You are correct. I can forgive those whose actions no longer have impact on life. Actions that were in the past that have no influence today.

                            But for those of us who lost people in Vietnam we still carry this burden today. People in Vietnam are still suffering today.

                            I could also forgive Jane if she were to publicly say that she wrong and explicitly about what. That the North Vietnamese were Tyrants looking to conquer the people of the South, rule with oppression and deny freedom and human rights. If she were willing to admit the truth then I could forgive. She has not. She has been vague and evasive. If you are wrong and want to apologize, you need to tell us what you were wrong about.

                            Jane has not atoned for her actions and I cannot forgive until she does, or until people no longer suffer because of the things she actively promoted.

                            My skeletons never caused great suffering to a lot of people over a period of generations.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Miss.Saigon View Post
                              People who don't live in the same world as the rest of us should not have the right to pontificate on how we should live or what we should believe.

                              My electric Bill is less than $30 a month. Albert Gore spent over $30,000 on his utilities yet he is self righteous enough to tell the rest of us we have to conserve.

                              George Clooney buys a Villa in Italy and renovates the entire thing to his liking. The Average Italian cannot get a building permit to enlarge a window in his home, much less a major renovation, yet George Loony sings the praises of the humanity of Italian Socialism.

                              Jane Fonda tells us that we should all "hope to be communists", yet she is a wealthy American who never wanted for anything. She never lived in a country with a communist system, nor had to give up anything to such a system.

                              These people are hypocrites and we shouldn't have to listen to them. I don't know how anyone can give them any respect or think they have anything intelligent to say. They don't have to live under the same limitations and restraints as the rest of us, yet they are perfectly willing to tell us how to live and heap more limitations and restraints upon us.

                              All of these kinds of people are scum, Jane just happened to also break the law. The law should have applied to her and she should have been prosecuted.
                              As usual... I completely agree with MS - She hit the hammer right on the nail!!!

                              Also - I usually don't agree with Mountain Man - but soem times I do... and right now, I cannot support him more - hanoi Jane is a tritor and should have faced federal charges as soon as she stepped foot back on US soil... besides... If NVN was sooooo great & everyone should be a communist... Then... why return to the "Devil-layden, Capitalistic holy ground? Because it's America... and she's not only a stupid b tch... but she's also a hypocrite! If American's so bad... then why did she come back???



                              Why???

                              Because it's America, dmmit!!!!!

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