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  • #16
    Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
    I don't know how I feel about Putin. I am a supporter of an idea of a "strong Russia", but why does it always have to be through autocracy? This just plays into the western stereotype that Russia can only be ruled by autocrats/tyrants because the people are cowed and lazy.

    Just for starters, it is Russia, not the West or the US. If I were Russian, I would in all likelihood would be a Putin supporter as well. He's a strong leader, maybe the strongest on Earth right now. Divisional Politics is not what Russians want right now they want solutions to their many problems.
    Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

    History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
    Lazarus Long

    Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
    David Bowie

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
      Andrey, I've read more citisism of Putin in the Russian media than in the US media. Garri Kasparov/Russia Without Putin, etc.
      It depends from what concretly to read.

      Yes, there are a few Russian-language sources and organizations established on money of Western anti-Russian funds (mainly the same that gave money to "color" revolutions). Practically nobody in Russia read them, their rating is about ZERO here.

      If you want to know what exactly Russia thinks about read "Komsomolskaya Pravda"'s site www.kp.ru. It is the most popular Russian newspaper now, and it does criticizes rules often.

      It shows well enough the Russian public opinion, Russian problems and Russian point of view.

      The site have got archive of previous numbers so you can know very much interesting from it.

      Here is a set of good Western articles
      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle2994651.ece
      http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/...on/edpetro.php
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists...171414,00.html
      http://www.americanchronicle.com/art...rticleID=44358
      Last edited by Andrey; 07 Dec 07, 04:21.

      Comment


      • #18
        kp.ru is where I read about the arrest and jailing and alleged beatings of Garri Kasparov and Eduard Limonov

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
          kp.ru is where I read about the arrest and jailing and alleged beatings of Garri Kasparov and Eduard Limonov
          so you know about www.kp.ru
          Last edited by Andrey; 07 Dec 07, 09:17.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Andrey View Post
            what you speak is nice words but reality shows it doesn't workn too often. Those several families of networks are under control of a few rich guys.

            I read translations of Western mass media about the processes in Russia. Indeed there are a few journalists who describes the events correctly but their voices sunk in the voices of the other incompetent biased reporters. Commonly the Western mass media are biased against Russia and are too russophobic.
            Media in the west responds to the mass market, so with few exceptions (e.g., Fox News network, arguably), it's hard to call the western media a mouthpiece for "a few rich guys." The companies that own these media outlets are public companies owned by millions of stockholders, some big, some small. If the public views an outlet as either too liberal or too conservative, it will tend to gravitate to other sources, which then make more money and become larger.

            It's not perfect, but it's better than a government-dominated system where incompetence or corruption in government cannot be discovered. The more government dominance of the media, the less effective the media is in checking government.

            Regarding Russophobia, you have to remember that the western press is inherently liberal, and spends much more time criticizing governments at home than it does in Russia or elsewhere.

            In the west it views itself as being a check on government, and it takes that same attitude when it critiques foreign government. The more powerful the central government, the more it will tend to criticize. That's why it was generally kind to Gorbachev (viewed as taking an autocratic structure and making it more liberal) and has been less kind to Putin (viewed as taking a moderate structure and making it more autocratic). It did the same thing in the U.S. when Nixon was perceived as too autocratic, and it attacked the current Bush when he was viewed as taking away too many civil liberties to fight the war on terror. I'm not saying any of these conclusions are objectively correct - that's debatable - but without a chorus of intrusive, annoying journalists, we can't even have an intelligent debate. The media's job is to shine light on government actions, not necessarily agree with them.
            "There are only two professions in the world in which the amateur excels the professional. One, military strategy, and, two, prostitution."
            -- Maj. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

            (Avatar: Commodore Edwin Ward Moore, Republic of Texas Navy)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Andrey View Post
              so you know about www.kp.ru
              Sorry is there a "english" button somewhere that ive missed or is it russian speaking only?
              http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
              www.reenactor.se

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              • #22
                I think its Russian only ThomasM. And yes, Andrey, I've read kp.ru! It's not like it's some controversial voice from the undergound - it's a totally mainstream newspaper! One that's been one of the biggest papers in Russia/USSR ever!~

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                • #23
                  Here is another VERY good western article. It shows the situation how we, Russians. see it.

                  http://www.counterpunch.com/whitney12052007.html

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                    Here is another VERY good western article. It shows the situation how we, Russians. see it.

                    http://www.counterpunch.com/whitney12052007.html
                    Thanks, Andrey. In Canada we do get a different angle than even the US. However, to me it's much more important as to how Mr Putin is thought of at home in Russia. The West should be appauding a Russia that is stablizing, especially with the military might that the Russian Forces possess. Much less to fear IMHO right now than a few short years back.
                    Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

                    History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
                    Lazarus Long

                    Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
                    David Bowie

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                      Here is another VERY good western article. It shows the situation how we, Russians. see it.

                      http://www.counterpunch.com/whitney12052007.html
                      Ok, I read this. Good deal.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by PzKfwBob View Post
                        Thanks, Andrey. In Canada we do get a different angle than even the US. However, to me it's much more important as to how Mr Putin is thought of at home in Russia. The West should be appauding a Russia that is stablizing, especially with the military might that the Russian Forces possess. Much less to fear IMHO right now than a few short years back.
                        I want to explain. It is not stabilizing only why we like Putin. We are not guys who are ready to lose freedom for stability.

                        We don't want to be American puppets, we don't want to look how Americans bomb all what they want and declare to other world what to do.

                        Putin returned to us our national pride. Putin made order!!!! In the 90th bandits had real power. It was Eltsin't democracy. We had the same oill trading (indeed with lower prices) bit only small group of oligarchs-semi-bandits became richer and richer. But Eltsin did what West wanted from him so his regime was declared good in West. Putin's policy is independent and West organized information war against him and declared him a dictator.

                        Here what we think about him.

                        The election results show it well enough. I am not a supporter of United Russia party but Putin asked to vote for them and I did it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                          The election results show it well enough.
                          Some results are quite strange...
                          Tchechenia voting at 99,9 % pro Putin when they are at war against Russia for years is quite hard to believe...
                          Either all the guys against Russia are dead or the vote is not really "democratic".

                          I leave in a country where the former president was elected with 87% of the votes but only because people voted AGAINST the other candidate, not FOR him.
                          The next (March 2007) election saw a 53/47% result that is far more usual.

                          That said, I do believe that Putin is criticized in most Western medias because he doesn't act in a "Western way".

                          Don't you remember what have been said about France when we refuse to follow G.W. Bush in Irak ?

                          It's the same thing with Russia, criticized in medias as Putin doesn't stick to the Western way of thinking.

                          Democracy may have different faces...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                            I want to explain. It is not stabilizing only why we like Putin. We are not guys who are ready to lose freedom for stability.

                            We don't want to be American puppets, we don't want to look how Americans bomb all what they want and declare to other world what to do.

                            Putin returned to us our national pride. Putin made order!!!! In the 90th bandits had real power. It was Eltsin't democracy. We had the same oill trading (indeed with lower prices) bit only small group of oligarchs-semi-bandits became richer and richer. But Eltsin did what West wanted from him so his regime was declared good in West. Putin's policy is independent and West organized information war against him and declared him a dictator.

                            Here what we think about him.

                            The election results show it well enough. I am not a supporter of United Russia party but Putin asked to vote for them and I did it.
                            Myself, Andrey, I have seen all of what you are saying. Especially, the puppet thing, hey, we share a border with the US. Very hard to look different when you share a language, and a lot of culture. However, we do have many differences. Why should Russia be any different.
                            Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

                            History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
                            Lazarus Long

                            Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
                            David Bowie

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Andrey View Post

                              Putin returned to us our national pride. Putin made order!!!! In the 90th bandits had real power. It was Eltsin't democracy. We had the same oill trading (indeed with lower prices) bit only small group of oligarchs-semi-bandits became richer and richer. But Eltsin did what West wanted from him so his regime was declared good in West. Putin's policy is independent and West organized information war against him and declared him a dictator.
                              That sounds ominously familiar.
                              "There are only two professions in the world in which the amateur excels the professional. One, military strategy, and, two, prostitution."
                              -- Maj. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

                              (Avatar: Commodore Edwin Ward Moore, Republic of Texas Navy)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jon Jordan View Post
                                That sounds ominously familiar.
                                I do see the analogue you mention. Hitler... Nazies...

                                The western rulers who organized anti-Putin propagana campaign play with your scares.

                                Putin is not a nazi, he is a former KGB officer. He is a spy (in Russian it is called scout, spy is a bad word).

                                Our view of such guys is not the same as yours. The most of them defended their Motherland. They were patriots.

                                Not political clowns.

                                Limonov who went in demonstrations together with Kasparov is real Nazi. His Party is called National-Bolshevists Party. He was in a prison because he was arrested when large group of his followers and he were training to shoot from AK-47 in a camp preparing to make coup-de-tout!!! Kasparov went with him in one line! It was because the significant part of the demostrants were Limonov's guys.

                                Zhirinovsky can be called Russian Hitler.

                                So Putin is not Russian Hitler, he is Russian De Gaulle. Have you heard about De Gaulle and what he had done to France?

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