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The Russian Casualties of WW2

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  • The Russian Casualties of WW2

    I have a spirited debate with [Magister], who seemed to be in possession of some interesting books. Here is the conversation from the NATO forum,
    on which he started a dabate with the topic "RELIABLE ALLIES"

    And the Excerpts of our debate regarding "THE RUSSIAN CASUALTIES"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Konzev
    You are probably unaware of the Order "Verbrannte Erde" (Burnt Earth) It was Hitlers order not to leave any stone unturned, any lifestock alive, any source of water unuseable. This order was pretty much carried out to the letter. So a region in the size of Texas and New Mexico was turned into a poisoned desert. Russian Soldiers who had their homes in that region, had almost nothing to get back to. And often all their relatives murdered by Fascist Sonder Kommandoes. 20 Million russians or perhaps many more where killed. Only half of them Soldiers or Partizans.

    Originally posted by Magister View Post
    Magister:
    I believe the phrase is "scorched earth", an old Russian tactic dating back at least to the time of Napoleon. Destroy everything in the path of the invader. The Red Army practiced it in the face of the German invasion and I suppose the Germans did the same as they withdrew. I'm sure the Russians had good reason to pillage and burn their way to the Elbe. It's what happened after the shooting stopped that led to the cold war..
    My Reply:
    I suggest you study this subject more detailed, perhaps visit those sites battlefields and museums in Russia, talk to some of the elderly Locals.
    Not only 6 million jews where murdered by the nazy's, but also more of an equal number of russian civilians shared that fate too. Another Holocaust most american seem to be unaware of. And it seems so are you by
    your marginalization.
    Where is your proof that the soviets "pillage and burn their way to the Elbe"
    Yes, there where some crimes committed by the Red Army in East Prussia
    but not the way you describe it.

    If you want to get the idea, I recomand two films:
    COME AND SEE (idi i smotri)

    Franz & Polina


    Originally posted by Magister View Post
    Magister:
    You seem to think that I am passing judgement on the actions of the Red Army on its way to Berlin. While I certainly believe that the officers could have exercised better discipline, I realize that the Germans did not comport themselves any better in Russia. On the eastern front no one followed the Geneva Convention.
    ..
    I replied:
    For germany it was "ein Vernichtungs Feldzug" (Termination Campaign) against the "Untermensch" (Sub-human).
    For the Russian it was a fight for Mother Russia for there very existence, for their culture.
    What do you know about bad russian diszipline ?

    Originally posted by Magister View Post
    Magister:
    Everything I have ever read about the Soviet Army tells about the brutality, by Western standards, of the treatment meted out to the recruits. During the second WW the high Russian casualties can be attributed to some extent to the low regard for life held by the leadership. They thought nothing of sending men to certain death by the thousands. I can't imagine the US or the UK losing men like that.
    ..

    I replied:
    You have no idea, how the russian army was trained.
    You only answer with blissful ignorance, you have read from dubious right wing publications. You don't even know, that Stalin purged the russian Officers Corps prior to WW2 by either having them murdered
    or send to Gulags. General Tuchatchevskj was a brilliant Soldier, intellectualy gifted and very popular in the Red Army.
    He fell victim to Stalins paranoia, and with him about 80% of his fellow officers. When operation Barbarossa started, the Red Army was literally leaderless. I believe that should explain.



    Originally posted by Magister View Post
    Magister:
    Well then the Red Army had a strange way of demonstrating their value for the lives of their soldiers. The harsh treatment in the Soviet Army persisted to the end of the USSR and in today's Russian army. I mean harsh by western standards. You are correct about the US Civil war, sometimes called the first "modern war." General Grant has been accused of throwing away the lives of his men in that conflict. Times have changed. We have grown soft in the west and are unwilling to lose any lives. When people here lament the US losses in Vietnam, I like to point out that the British lost more men at the battle of the Somme than the US lost in the entire Vietnam War.
    ..
    I replyed:
    Originally Posted by Konzev
    You don't even know, that Stalin purged the russian Officers Corps prior to WW2 by either having them murdered
    or send to Gulags. General Tuchatchevskj was a brilliant Soldier, intellectualy gifted and very popular in the Red Army.
    He fell victim to Stalins paranoia, and with him about 80% of his fellow officers. When operation Barbarossa started, the Red Army was literally leaderless. I believe that should explain.


    Originally posted by Magister View Post
    Magister:
    I fail to see what any of this has to do with the way the Red Army sacrificed its soldiers during the war. Some might view this as sign of strength, that the Red Army soldier was willing to die for the motherland in huge numbers. Others might view this as the behavior of barbarians.
    ..
    I replied:
    All I know about the red army, is what I read about it, and of People who served in the Great Patriotic War. So I was kind of surprised that you did not include the Purge in your view.
    According to the Red Army Veterans, life was valued very highly.
    And if you had studied the American Civil War, you should have drawn a more useful comparison. The casualties your country suffered from 1861-1864, where in percentage simular to the ones the russians suffered.

    Originally posted by Magister View Post
    Magister:
    Well then the Red Army had a strange way of demonstrating their value for the lives of their soldiers. The harsh treatment in the Soviet Army persisted to the end of the USSR and in today's Russian army. I mean harsh by western standards. You are correct about the US Civil war, sometimes called the first "modern war." General Grant has been accused of throwing away the lives of his men in that conflict. Times have changed. We have grown soft in the west and are unwilling to lose any lives. When people here lament the US losses in Vietnam, I like to point out that the British lost more men at the battle of the Somme than the US lost in the entire Vietnam War.
    ..

  • #2
    The link originated from here:
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...84#post1692784

    Comment


    • #3
      Ну, что? Why post it here? The OP has a poor understanding of the Red Army and the Great Patriotic War. What more is there to say?

      Scott Fraser
      Canada
      Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

      A contentedly cantankerous old fart

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
        Ну, что? Why post it here? The OP has a poor understanding of the Red Army and the Great Patriotic War. What more is there to say?

        Scott Fraser
        Canada
        I hoped the "Magister" could learn something here, if he has an open mind, that is. Also it helps to have a few friends to eduacate someone.

        Comment


        • #5
          According to the Red Army Veterans, life was valued very highly.
          Well... I would definitely phrase it differently.
          Really high portion of the Soviet veterans memoirs mentions contrary, i.e. the soldiers lives were not of particularly high value in many occasions.

          And generally you two were basically arguing about two different things... But who am I to judge!?
          Kind regards
          Igor

          * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
          * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
          * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
            Ну, что?
            It is better to say: Ну, и что?
            Kind regards
            Igor

            * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
            * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
            * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Egorka View Post
              It is better to say: Ну, и что?
              If there is a token of curiousity left in Magister, we can only hope that he is studying the subject now.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Konzev View Post
                If there is a token of curiousity left in Magister, we can only hope that he is studying the subject now.
                Scientia potentia est!
                Kind regards
                Igor

                * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                  It is better to say: Ну, и что?
                  LOL! thanks. I don't often mutter with a keyboard.

                  С новым годом,
                  Scott
                  Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                  A contentedly cantankerous old fart

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One my granddad was truck driver delivering goods to besieged Leningrad over ice of Ladoga see, 3 his trucks went in the water. Also he was driver of “Katiusha”. Another my granddad was telephonist; he came to Kenigsbergby the end of war. Those military occupations were having quite high rate of mortality but they both have died in late 1990 in age about 90 years. May be it was their good luck, may be experience of mature men has something with that.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                      One my granddad was truck driver delivering goods to besieged Leningrad over ice of Ladoga see, 3 his trucks went in the water. Also he was driver of “Katiusha”.
                      Has he left any memoirs? It would be great to read and translate them.
                      www.histours.ru

                      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                        One my granddad was truck driver delivering goods to besieged Leningrad over ice of Ladoga see, 3 his trucks went in the water. Also he was driver of “Katiusha”. Another my granddad was telephonist; he came to Kenigsbergby the end of war. Those military occupations were having quite high rate of mortality but they both have died in late 1990 in age about 90 years. May be it was their good luck, may be experience of mature men has something with that.
                        "Magister" should read about those russian people, but sadly he only wants to read "safe" predigested (neo-conservative)crap.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Konzev View Post
                          "Magister" should read about those russian people, but sadly he only wants to read "safe" predigested (neo-conservative)crap.
                          You hit the nail squarely on the head. There are many people like that, who remain content to believe the myths they were taught forty years ago. Some still live in that world, and will never leave it.

                          Cheers
                          Scott Fraser
                          Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                          A contentedly cantankerous old fart

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                            Has he left any memoirs? It would be great to read and translate them.
                            No he was not writer he was ordinary truck driver in 1930th in Mongolia and ambulance car driver in 1960th in town Lipetsk. He was 196 cm tall and had difficulties to accommodate himself in a cabin designed for much smaller persons. He told once about German soldier who lifted his hands but when Soviet soldiers came close to him, he shot them with machinegun hanging on his neck. Afterwards they were wary of surrendering Germans. We were not interested in memoires of our relatives and acquainted when we were teenagers too pity. Today there are too few veterans of WWII. My friend’s father was bomber pilot I think he is still alive in Irkutsk. One my friend I worked with 15 years told about his father tank driver. He has front friend German engineer who arrived in USSR before war and did not returned to Germany because he was Communist and all his family perished in concentration camp. When they were near his town, he took platoon of machinegunmen and investigated who was guilty in his family plight and executed them. My friend called him Uncle Valter, for he visited sometimes his father. He was chief engineer at ZIS /ZIL plant after War. Friend's father was tractor driver in a village near Kirov town.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So much of this depended on the commander of a unit. Some were better at taking care of the soldiers than others. That includes skill in tactics or operations that may reduce casualties.


                              Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                              No he was not writer he was ordinary truck driver in 1930th in Mongolia and ambulance car driver in 1960th in town Lipetsk. He was 196 cm tall and had difficulties to accommodate himself in a cabin designed for much smaller persons. He told once about German soldier who lifted his hands but when Soviet soldiers came close to him, he shot them with machinegun hanging on his neck. Afterwards they were wary of surrendering Germans. We were not interested in memoires of our relatives and acquainted when we were teenagers too pity. Today there are too few veterans of WWII. My friend’s father was bomber pilot I think he is still alive in Irkutsk. One my friend I worked with 15 years told about his father tank driver. He has front friend German engineer who arrived in USSR before war and did not returned to Germany because he was Communist and all his family perished in concentration camp. When they were near his town, he took platoon of machinegunmen and investigated who was guilty in his family plight and executed them. My friend called him Uncle Valter, for he visited sometimes his father. He was chief engineer at ZIS /ZIL plant after War. Friend's father was tractor driver in a village near Kirov town.
                              Thanks for that fragment. So many of these veterans waited too long before they tried to tell their story & too many were not properly recorded.

                              Comment

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