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  • Social engineering

    Kudos to Erikki, for bringing it up.

    It's been a long time since I thought about social engineering, per se. I got into a spitting contest with someone recently because I did not recognize the effect.

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=99582

    This has been a most interesting thread. A very good question posed, put by someone with a brain, and there are all manner of responses.

    Social engineering.

    What is it? What does it mean? What has it made us?

    It exists. We are the result. I have studied propaganda, and I see it in action. We are who we are told we are.

    This maybe goes beyond this forum, but it comes into focus because of the narrowmindedness of some, who hate for the sake of hate. Why is that? Who taught them that, and why do they carry it with such passion?

    Social engineering.

    We are programmed. We are blank space, waiting to be filled, and we are. Some of us, the best of us, rebel and go looking for alternatives, but most just cave in, and believe what we are told. Sheep.

    I got into an argument with a victim of social engineering, and he did not even know he was a victim.How far does it go? Where does it stop? How many of us know we are manipulated?

    John Lennon would have us believe the English Army won the war. John Wayne would have us believe it was the Americans at Omaha Beach. None of it is true, but we believe it. We are programmed.

    So I throw this out there. How many of you are aware of how much your schooling has affected your comprehension and understanding?

    The British won the War. So did the Americans. So did the Russians, and the Canadians, and the French, and the Poles, and everyone else opposed to the tyranny of Naziism. No one won. Everyone won. We all won. Why does everyone have to claim credit?

    Food for thought.

    Scott Fraser
    Canada
    Last edited by Scott Fraser; 26 Oct 10, 07:55.
    Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

    A contentedly cantankerous old fart

  • #2
    Because there is a thin called Patriotism ( or nationalism for some people ). There is "us" and "they". There are "mine ideas" and "the wrong ones".
    It's the human nature.
    There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

    Comment


    • #3
      We seem to judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions.
      (By the way Scott, I believe John Lennon was being ironic - he was a bugger for that).
      "Freedom of thought is the only guarantee against infection of peoples by the mass myths, which, in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues, can be transformed into bloody dictatorships."
      Hero of the Soviet Union, Andrei Sakharov 1968

      Comment


      • #4
        John Wayne would have us believe it was the Americans at Omaha Beach. None of it is true, but we believe it. We are programmed.
        John Wayne never portrayed anyone at Omaha Beach.
        It was the Americans at Omaha Beach.

        Evidently, you are indeed programmed. You need to find an upgrade.
        "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
        — Groucho Marx

        Comment


        • #5
          I think it's more than that. There was a public policy decision in the USSR and in Nazi Germany to engage in just that: social engineering, and it worked, to one degree or another. The same kind of thing happened during the Cultural Revolution, and is part of everyday life today in China.

          In a society with free media, it's much harder to achieve, but it happens. In Canada today, it is slowly becoming socially unacceptable to smoke tobacco. That may sound like a trivial example, but it is happening. Public attitudes are changing because of information and legislation, at the behest of the government, an implementation of a public policy decision.

          A more significant example would be the way that language has been used in Quebec, where a multi-cultural community is losing part of that diversity because of opposition of the provincial government to the use of languages other than French. This includes restrictions on signage and the language of instruction in the school systems. It is a reaction to the global pan-English trend, a wrong-headed attempt to legislate against progress, in my opinion, but it is there.

          Certainly societies evolve, but other aspects of Canadian life are also 'boosted' by subsidies and tax incentives, particularly sectors like publishing and entertainment. Cultural industries. It makes us think differently than our neighbours to the south, who have their own assortment of programs and priorities. It makes us spell differently, too.

          So how prevalent is this phenomenon, and what impact does it have? How aware of it are we?

          Scott Fraser
          Last edited by Scott Fraser; 27 Oct 10, 11:37.
          Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

          A contentedly cantankerous old fart

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not sure what this has to do with the RKKA in WW2, but here are a few thoughts to while away the time.

            I guess we are all to some extent, the products of our environments. No-one can fully escape a lifetime of social influence, and I doubt that most people would want to. Even the most pluralistic of societies have evolved universally acknowledged taboos and social paradigms.

            Since people in pluralistic societies are generally exposed to more varied and even contradictory views and influences than people in more autocratic societies, it would, as you acknowledge Scott, be harder for governments in such countries to manipulate the populous into modified behaviours or modes of thought. Often governments find themselves pushing at an open door (as in the increasing social opprobrium of drink-driving), or they are swept along by social movements outside their control – witness the rise and rise of environmentalism. Sometimes societies engage in activities that are viewed with disdain only in hindsight. (Such as the Australian policy of removing aboriginal children from their families to be brought up ‘properly’; or Sweden’s tentative steps on the road to a eugenics programme). These events often take place ‘under the radar’. In democracies governments don’t generally exist long enough to consciously engage in social engineering, and unless there was some powerful economic imperative, they probably wouldn’t try. There aren’t many votes in rocking the boat.

            Of course it’s not just the politicians that influence our lives. There are powerful and unaccountable movers and shakers – captains of industry and the media moguls. We are inevitably influenced by what we read, see and hear; and that, to some degree, can be controlled and manipulated. The rich and powerful may have the means to pursue a long-term agenda, though they may, in the process, run the risk of financial ruin. (In the UK at the moment there is a great deal of controversy about the alleged failure of the police to adequately investigate incidents of phone tapping by a national newspaper. The allegations are that the Murdock empire has so much dirt on senior politicians and police officers, that it is pretty much immune from investigation, and that the high-profile victims of the phone taps are prepared to be bought off in out-of-court settlements. It can’t help that the then editor of the newspaper concerned is currently the communications director of the office of the British Prime Minister. But I digress).

            In autocratic countries social engineering becomes a more feasible proposition. As an ordinary individual in such a country, you have little influence over what is taught in schools or what you see on television. Either you believe pretty much everything you are told, or you adopt a completely cynical attitude to your society. (A common refrain in Czechoslovakia before the fall of communism was, “We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us”). I imagine such cynicism must get very wearing year after year. Easier, surely, to just accept what you’re told, particularly if it isn’t a self-evident lie, and to conform. And as Hitler discovered, building on pre-existing prejudice is a useful way to smooth the path to social change.
            "Freedom of thought is the only guarantee against infection of peoples by the mass myths, which, in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues, can be transformed into bloody dictatorships."
            Hero of the Soviet Union, Andrei Sakharov 1968

            Comment


            • #7
              It has nothing to do with the RKKA; it's just Scotty's chance to throw his ego around the room by lecturing everyone on basic history, apparently he's the only one who can see through propaganda (a process that requires a great deal of tin foil no doubt). Social engineering primarily refers to old school Kevin Mitnick tricks and confidence tricks not imperialist capitalist swine propaganda.

              While similar to a confidence trick or simple fraud, the term typically applies to trickery or deception for the purpose of information gathering, fraud, or computer system access; in most cases the attacker never comes face-to-face with the victim.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_...ring_(security)

              In a social engineering attack, an attacker uses human interaction (social skills) to obtain or compromise information about an organization or its computer systems.
              http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/tips/ST04-014.html

              At least Scotty's vocabulary continues grow even if he doesn't know what the terms he uses mean.
              Last edited by The Highwayman; 27 Oct 10, 17:59.
              "They're inviting us to defeat them! We must oblige them!"
              -Baron Munchausen

              "Ah, 'tis midsummer madness, the music is my temples, the hot blood of youth! Come, Kapellmeister, let the violas throb. My regiment leaves at dawn!"
              -Groucho Marx

              Comment


              • #8
                The Highwayman, you are really one to talk about throwing egos around that is all you do with your constant cries of "that's racist" and "that's fascist" (the latter I'm still not sure you actually can define) You love to try to hide your own bigotry towards Russians with loud cries about how you are so against bigotry hoping that will cover up your own hate, much like how numerous anti-Semites do by supporting Palestine (IE: using that as a forum to spread anti-Jewish hate disguised as standing up for the poor innocent Palestinians)
                Кто там?
                Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interesting, first you claim that I am falsely accusing people of racism then you proceed to label me as an anti-Russian bigot without providing any evidence to support that falsehood. Cite some examples of this 'bigotry'; good with that since no evidence indicating that I hold anti-Russian views exists.
                  "They're inviting us to defeat them! We must oblige them!"
                  -Baron Munchausen

                  "Ah, 'tis midsummer madness, the music is my temples, the hot blood of youth! Come, Kapellmeister, let the violas throb. My regiment leaves at dawn!"
                  -Groucho Marx

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Pretty much the response i expected. You can continue to be in denial about your own bigotry and can continue to overcompensate trying to cover it up by calling everything under the sun racist and fascist to try to detract from your own hate, it is no sweat off my back. But just be aware that you are pretty predictable, transparent, and one dimensional, and it is fooling very few people.
                    Кто там?
                    Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                    Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I see our resident ultranationalist racist is up to his old tricks again and he's probably jealous of Finland's cultural superiority.
                      Trying to peacefully coexist with a genocidial empire?
                      It seems there is nothing to his identity beyond the fact that he had the grave misfortune to be born in Russia.
                      Call a country "genocidal empire", without culture and place no to be born. If it's not anti-Russian what is it ?
                      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                        Call a country "genocidal empire", without culture and place no to be born. If it's not anti-Russian what is it ?
                        I was waiting for someone to post a few great quotes from him, though his response will be something along the lines of "that is the truth" and then he will post several links he didn't actually read past the first line on the search results.
                        Кто там?
                        Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                        Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Pretty much the response i expected. You can continue to be in denial about your own bigotry and can continue to overcompensate trying to cover it up by calling everything under the sun racist and fascist to try to detract from your own hate, it is no sweat off my back. But just be aware that you are pretty predictable, transparent, and one dimensional, and it is fooling very few people.
                          *Yawn.* Once again no evidence just personal attacks.

                          I was waiting for someone to post a few great quotes from him, though his response will be something along the lines of "that is the truth" and then he will post several links he didn't actually read past the first line on the search results.
                          What quotes are you referring to?

                          Call a country "genocidal empire", without culture and place no to be born. If it's not anti-Russian what is it ?
                          A. I was referring to a state that no longer exists, I suppose I'm also anti-Asian for calling the Mongol empire genocidal?

                          B. I didn't say Russia has no culture; I consider Finland to have a superior culture (Finland never had serfdom unlike Russia and the Finns have their **** together Russia still has a very long way to go).

                          C. You are taking them out of context without providing a link to the original post.

                          D. The last quote is merely a joke; ShAA for example has posted at least one Polish joke on here and Scottwhatshiname has insulted my nationality so comments like that are accepted on here. Also when I wrote that comment I was thinking more of Russia's miserable weather than anti-Russian racism, congratulations on scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel.
                          Last edited by The Highwayman; 28 Oct 10, 07:50.
                          "They're inviting us to defeat them! We must oblige them!"
                          -Baron Munchausen

                          "Ah, 'tis midsummer madness, the music is my temples, the hot blood of youth! Come, Kapellmeister, let the violas throb. My regiment leaves at dawn!"
                          -Groucho Marx

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You call everyone that you don't agree with a racist, a fascist, an ultranationalist etc. but can't handle being called on your own bigotry. This is pretty typical of people with your psychology, so it is really no big surprise.
                            Кто там?
                            Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                            Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              1. I have only called a few people on here racists or fascists and in all cases I was correct; your dear friend ShAA just posted Srebrenica genocide denial material for example.

                              2. What bigotry? Once again, provide evidence or drop it.
                              "They're inviting us to defeat them! We must oblige them!"
                              -Baron Munchausen

                              "Ah, 'tis midsummer madness, the music is my temples, the hot blood of youth! Come, Kapellmeister, let the violas throb. My regiment leaves at dawn!"
                              -Groucho Marx

                              Comment

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