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  • Originally posted by Col. Dyess View Post
    The one movie on your list I do not believe to be very realistic is Memphis Belle. The would NEVER go around for another try at the target, they would go to there secondary target instead. Twelve O'clock High is a much better film about the bombers even though it was made in 1949.
    I think the more mistake was when they refused from the first attempt bombing because "they didn't see the target and could hit hospital which was nearby of the target". In reality the US aircrews didn't think much about German hospitals and other civilian objects when they didn't see their primary targets. In such cases the US airmen bombed "blindly" using bomb-sights.

    But commonly the movie is good.

    The Great Raid is a recent war movie I recommend

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0326905/

    Its about a ranger raid to free a group of American prisoners of war in the Philippines. It really was an amazing raid in that they only lost two men on the whole raid. The sad part is that after I watched the movie, I realized that one of the men killed was the son of a children's author I read a lot as a kid. I don't know if the movie is available in Russian subtitles, as it was box-office flop here. But it if you can see it, its well worth it.
    I have seen it. I didn't mention it because the question was about OLD movies.

    Unfortunately for you I disliked the movie.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
      Your opinion is very interesting to me. I would not want to detract from this excellent thread about Soviet / Russian movies, but just to correct Col Dyess:
      The Battle of Britain is a British movie. Good aerial sequences and music but weak otherwise. Better are The Way to the Stars, The Dambusters for RAF portrayals.
      The Battle of the River Plate is British and a good example of the factual naval war film - like Sink the Bismarck, The Cruel Sea, In Which We Serve and San Demetrio London.
      The Hill is British - about a military prison camp.
      The train film is Von Ryan's Express with Frank Sinatra - US
      Tobruk I can't recall in detail butI think was a rather inaccurate US movie.
      I agree that 12 o' clock High- if it is the one I'm thinking of with Gregory Peck was better than Memphis Bell.
      Perhaps you saw The Sands of Iwo Jima in b & w with John Wayne. A bit Hollywood for my taste but it included some genuine combat footage I think.
      The Longest Day was a joint US Brit movie and was closely based on Cornelius Ryan's book as was A Bridge Too Far - British.
      On the subject of stereotypes, the main victims are theGertmans, usually portrayed as fanatical nazis or idiots - the latter particularly in POW camp films (you must have seen The Great Escape Andrey!)
      One of the best films to challenge these stereotypes was Das Boot - an interesting comparison with 72 Metres.
      I agree that stereotypes can be shaped by propaganda and then become entrenched. I relate to thge swaggering boastful, gum chewing, cigar chomping, womanising GI portrayal, and I understand your perceptionof the stiff upper lip Brit. I don't see anything wrong in portraying different tactics used in infantry attackes eg - except Enemy at The Gate!
      I don't think I will turn red watching all these Russian Soviet movies - just a little pink maybe. Better red than dead as they used to say!

      You might be right Dave about Battle of Britain. I know the stars are all British, but I forget whether it was British or Americans who produced the film.

      There is another British movie "Angels One Five" about the battle of Britain which I have never seen as it is an older film and rather hard to find.

      Dambusters was the best film ever made about British bombers. (My grandfather was a mechanic who worked on Lancasters during the battle of Britain.)

      Tobruk was a very forget able film with Rock Hudson.
      I am actually surprised you managed to see it Andrey as very few people remember it and has become a little hard to find.

      That's the one with Peck.

      Sands of Iwo Jima hasn't aged as well as some of John Wayne's other films, but is still very good with some memorable scenes.


      I think the Germans also helped produce "The Longest Day" I don't remember. If they didn't produce German actors were used in it.
      A Bridge Too Far is a must see to Andrey. If you liked "The Longest Day", you will like ABTF even better. They never made the third Ryan book, the one about the battle of Berlin, into a movie unfortunately.

      Dave my stereotype of a British person is Colonel Crittendon off of "Hogans Heroes".
      Last edited by Col. Dyess; 14 Jun 07, 23:55.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
        I think the more mistake was when they refused from the first attempt bombing because "they didn't see the target and could hit hospital which was nearby of the target". In reality the US aircrews didn't think much about German hospitals and other civilian objects when they didn't see their primary targets. In such cases the US airmen bombed "blindly" using bomb-sights.

        But commonly the movie is good.



        I have seen it. I didn't mention it because the question was about OLD movies.

        Unfortunately for you I disliked the movie.
        Sorry, I didn't know you had seen it and didn't like it.

        Agreed,
        But the flak would probably have gotten there altitude on the second pass and shot them all down in real life. Flak was the number one killer of bombers I am sure, not fighters.


        High altitude bombing killed a lot of civilians.

        "In this war there are no civilians" Hitler

        He was probably thinking about the bombings when he said this.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
          Your opinion is very interesting to me. I would not want to detract from this excellent thread about Soviet / Russian movies, but just to correct Col Dyess:
          The Battle of Britain is a British movie. Good aerial sequences and music but weak otherwise. Better are The Way to the Stars, The Dambusters for RAF portrayals.
          I remember that I got the impression of a very desperate battle - the British pilots fought, were shot down, bailed out, arrived on their airfield and again took off. I remember how a few young novices arrived and one of them couldn't bail out from the burning plane in a large battle. I remember the impression of the resolution to fight up to the end. I remember the scene in a British airfield when tired pilots were waiting for a command to take off but it was not called as the German didn't fly. The air combats are shown as a real battle and not as a good hunt "who will shoot more German planes". Very good movie. It didn't differ from my common impression about Battle of Britain.

          The Battle of the River Plate is British and a good example of the factual naval war film - like Sink the Bismarck, The Cruel Sea, In Which We Serve and San Demetrio London.
          As I remember it was a movie made in 1940 or 1941 (the describing events occurred in November of 1939)!!! It was a very intresting movie and quite exact.

          I can compare it with Soviet "Cruiser Variag" movie.

          Perhaps you saw The Sands of Iwo Jima in b & w with John Wayne. A bit Hollywood for my taste but it included some genuine combat footage I think.
          Yes, it was the movie with John Wayne. I remember an episode with a fallen Marine and a newspaper lying nearly with the slogan "Our hearts are young and brave".

          On the subject of stereotypes, the main victims are theGertmans, usually portrayed as fanatical nazis or idiots - the latter particularly in POW camp films (you must have seen The Great Escape Andrey!)
          I think the Soviets are more victims than the Germans Westerners compare the Germans in the movies with themselves but they don't do it with the Soviets.

          One of the best films to challenge these stereotypes was Das Boot - an interesting comparison with 72 Metres.
          I have seen "Das Boot". I think it is an excellent truthful movie. The alone mistake is that the authors wrote it was in 1941 (or in 1942?) but the might of Allied anti-submarine actions is too much for that time, I think it was like in 1944 and later. The author exagerrated Germjan troubles.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Col. Dyess View Post
            Agreed,
            But the flak would probably have gotten there altitude on the second pass and shot them all down in real life. Flak was the number one killer of bombers I am sure, not fighters.
            Theu could change altitude andto approach from another direction

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
              Theu could change altitude andto approach from another direction
              I have never heard of a flight of bomber intentionly changing the flight plan once in flight intentionally, although it might have happen. Altitude would be an important part of the flight plan.

              Keep in mind also those planes used up a LOT of fuel in flight. A simple turn around might not be possible if the target is at the extreme range limit.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                I remember that I got the impression of a very desperate battle - the British pilots fought, were shot down, bailed out, arrived on their airfield and again took off. I remember how a few young novices arrived and one of them couldn't bail out from the burning plane in a large battle. I remember the impression of the resolution to fight up to the end. I remember the scene in a British airfield when tired pilots were waiting for a command to take off but it was not called as the German didn't fly. The air combats are shown as a real battle and not as a good hunt "who will shoot more German planes". Very good movie. It didn't differ from my common impression about Battle of Britain..
                Your recollection is very good. It did follow actual events and include realistic scenes but I seem to recall it was padded out with a contrived love story involving a Waaf and an American flyer.
                Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                As I remember it was a movie made in 1940 or 1941 (the describing events occurred in November of 1939)!!! It was a very intresting movie and quite exact..

                I can compare it with Soviet "Cruiser Variag" movie..
                It was actually made in 1956. The actual incident was in late 39 as you say.
                Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                Yes, it was the movie with John Wayne. I remember an episode with a fallen Marine and a newspaper lying nearly with the slogan "Our hearts are young and brave".



                I think the Soviets are more victims than the Germans Westerners compare the Germans in the movies with themselves but they don't do it with the Soviets.
                .
                You are right. The Germans are closer and more familiar. The Angles and Saxons who invaded England left their blood running through the population. There was a sort of respect for the German soldier, particularly in the more chivalrous parts of the war - eg North Africa. The Russian Soldier is largely unknown to Brits apart from jokes about them having snow on their boots and being shot by Uncle Joe for failing to achieve objectives. Russia and Russians are exotic and mysterious. As I have said before, the immense scale of the fighting in the East is largely unknown - that's is one reason why you should be grateful to Beevor etc for, despite the negatives, they have helped explain the massive war warning effort of the Red Army.
                Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                I have seen "Das Boot". I think it is an excellent truthful movie. The alone mistake is that the authors wrote it was in 1941 (or in 1942?) but the might of Allied anti-submarine actions is too much for that time, I think it was like in 1944 and later. The author exagerrated Germjan troubles.
                Yes you are right about the timing. There were other inaccuracies but it remains one of my favourites.
                Col D, I barely remember Hogan's Heroes so can't place that character. I can imagine the type. More evidence of the inaccuracy of stereotypes I suspect

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                  Col D, I barely remember Hogan's Heroes so can't place that character. I can imagine the type. More evidence of the inaccuracy of stereotypes I suspect
                  Colonel Crittendom who played by Bernarnd Fox was an over the top British Officer who had to do ever thing by the book and every thing he planned would end up a hopeless mess, which Hogan would fix. Best moment in the series was Col. Crittendom is planning a raid and shows Hogan his map. It's the plans to radio set. Another he is going to drop across a road to stop a car, but decides to wait until the car is almost in front of the tree. When the car appears, he chops the tree and it falls the not across the road but in the other direction.

                  Hogans Heroes was a brilliant comedy and should be considered pure entertainment not history.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                    You are right. The Germans are closer and more familiar. The Angles and Saxons who invaded England left their blood running through the population. There was a sort of respect for the German soldier, particularly in the more chivalrous parts of the war - eg North Africa. The Russian Soldier is largely unknown to Brits apart from jokes about them having snow on their boots and being shot by Uncle Joe for failing to achieve objectives. Russia and Russians are exotic and mysterious. As I have said before, the immense scale of the fighting in the East is largely unknown - that's is one reason why you should be grateful to Beevor etc for, despite the negatives, they have helped explain the massive war warning effort of the Red Army.
                    Beevor's writings only confirm to the Western spectators - "yes, the Russian were low eduicated barbarians, they were not like you"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                      You are right. The Germans are closer and more familiar. The Angles and Saxons who invaded England left their blood running through the population. There was a sort of respect for the German soldier, particularly in the more chivalrous parts of the war - eg North Africa. The Russian Soldier is largely unknown to Brits apart from jokes about them having snow on their boots and being shot by Uncle Joe for failing to achieve objectives. Russia and Russians are exotic and mysterious. As I have said before, the immense scale of the fighting in the East is largely unknown - that's is one reason why you should be grateful to Beevor etc for, despite the negatives, they have helped explain the massive war warning effort of the Red Army.
                      If to speak about the idea "the Russians are like we"....

                      There is easier and better way to see it than to try to to read between the lines in Beevor's writings. It is to look a few Soviet movies. Especially like "They fought for the Motherland" whose main heroes are ordinary Soviet people who raised to protect their Motherland.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                        If to speak about the idea "the Russians are like we"....

                        There is easier and better way to see it than to try to to read between the lines in Beevor's writings. It is to look a few Soviet movies. Especially like "They fought for the Motherland" whose main heroes are ordinary Soviet people who raised to protect their Motherland.
                        There is an even easier way, to talk with Russian people such as yourself and Amvas!

                        I married a Russian women, you quickly realise they are just the same, but that isn't always good!
                        Wolster

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                        • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                          What about you Andrey? Have you viewed many old British war films, and if so, do you draw conclusions from them?
                          So how is the scale of my knowledge about Western military movies?

                          Comment


                          • Ok Andrey, you have some good knowledge of what you have seen. Maybe you have seen many morethan you have mentioned, but perhaps there are many British classics you have not seen. If so and you wish to view more, I can make more recommendations.
                            As for you reference to Beevor -
                            Beevor's writings only confirm to the Western spectators - "yes, the Russian were low eduicated barbarians, they were not like you"
                            You do him and writers like him and Hastings a disservice. They acknowledge that the Soviet Forces comprised of a mixture. Yes there were some uneducated hordes who had lived relatively simple if not primitive life-style, to the highly educated, very professional high quality troops who used advanced technology and tactics to great effect. You should consider these authors in respect of the totality of their books, and not just highlight and disagree with what you consider to be negative and inaccurate. As you are aware, I'm trying to view a good range of Soviet movies to supplement what I have read and viewed on TV History programs. It offers a perspective but I won't necessarilyconsider this source as being better than Western books I read.
                            If you can get it, I highly recommend The Cruel Sea as a depiction of the work of convoy escorts. It is based on a fictional story written by Nicholas Monsarrat who was a RNVR Officer in such ships. I think the style of the film is very similar to that of some of the classic Soviet War Films in its depiction of action and civilian life. (Ballad of a Soldier for example.)

                            Comment


                            • How is about "Sands of Ivodjima" (the old b/w version)? I think it is an excellet movie.
                              That is an exception to the rule of Pacific Marine movies and I think it is possible because Wayne's character was based off of those real veterans who were trusted beyond standard Marine discipline. In the Marines, "John Wayne" is a euphamism for a man with sloppy appearance or who acts beyond his position.

                              Westerners compare the Germans in the movies with themselves but they don't do it with the Soviets.
                              Well that has to do with two things: The war with Germany was an ideological war and not an apocalyptic race war like the war with Japan. German soldiers, despite a decade of Nazi doctrine, still retained a similar culture, and they were our new allies. Apart from the SS, German soldiers weren't known for brutality towards our prisoners or even our downed pilots (their MPs actually protected bomber crews from public lynchings, in contrast to Japan where they would die painfully at the hands of enemy soldiers). And, of course, focusing on the ideology and key groups as the enemy allowed us to make pro-war movies without offending our new allies. Reconciliation with Japan was much harder and there were books and movies made just for this purpose (like Hell in the Pacific).

                              The movies that portrayed hypothetical WW3 movies didn't portray the Russians in an offensive or overtly racist way. Even in Red Dawn the Soviet soldiers, with the exception of officers, act like any other soldiers - concerned for their men, telling jokes, and not showing the combat fatigue so common in modern movies. If anything, non-war movies are the ones that make fun of people.

                              So how is the scale of my knowledge about Western military movies?
                              If you like Platoon, know that it is not an accurate picture of that war at all, except for combat conditions. Other than that the movies you have been watching are good. I'm surprised so many of ours are available everywhere, actually.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                                As for you reference to Beevor -
                                Beevor's writings only confirm to the Western spectators - "yes, the Russian were low eduicated barbarians, they were not like you"
                                You do him and writers like him and Hastings a disservice. They acknowledge that the Soviet Forces comprised of a mixture. Yes there were some uneducated hordes who had lived relatively simple if not primitive life-style, to the highly educated, very professional high quality troops who used advanced technology and tactics to great effect. You should consider these authors in respect of the totality of their books, and not just highlight and disagree with what you consider to be negative and inaccurate. As you are aware, I'm trying to view a good range of Soviet movies to supplement what I have read and viewed on TV History programs. It offers a perspective but I won't necessarilyconsider this source as being better than Western books I read.
                                I am not sure I understand you completely on 100%.

                                You speak about different units - some like hordes and some - with good equipment, tactics and so on.

                                I think Western authors make large mistake when they separate Soviet units in such large scale. According Western opinion there were ordinary units (like hordes of barbarians), there were Guards units which were much better and there were "Siberians".

                                "Siberians" is only a myth. There were no such troops. There were units organized on mobilization in Siberia (ordinary units) and troops which were transferred to the Soviet-German Front from Soviet Far East where they secured Soviet border from Japanese Kwantung Army. Some of the troops that were transferred from Far East were regular pre-war organized formations with some military experience of combats against the Japanese in 1938-39. They had better equipment and training than the units that were organized quickly in 1941 from reservists.

                                The Guards units didn't differ significantly from ordinary units. The most of Guards units were ordinary units which got that rank for extraordinary successs on battlefield. For example, all the ordinartu Combined-Arms armies that fought in Stalingrad got such rank. Usually it was so - yesterday it was an ordinary division but suddenly its soldiers were informed they became Guards and got speial sign of Guards.

                                Also there were divisions formed in Caucasian and Middle Asian republics of the USSR. They had significant part of Caucasians or Asians who indeed were low educated and often even didn't speak Russian. Such units had relatively worse combat abilities.

                                But I meant Beevor's common image of an average Soviet soldier. I mean his style of description of Soviet soldiers in his books.

                                If you can get it, I highly recommend The Cruel Sea as a depiction of the work of convoy escorts. It is based on a fictional story written by Nicholas Monsarrat who was a RNVR Officer in such ships. I think the style of the film is very similar to that of some of the classic Soviet War Films in its depiction of action and civilian life. (Ballad of a Soldier for example.)
                                I have seen this book in book shops.

                                In Russia Allied seamen especially those who took part in Northern Convoys are held in respect.

                                I look for Western movis in shops. If something good appear, I'll think about buying it.

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