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  • Originally posted by Vitaly View Post
    So, in some situations, "Poshel ty..." can mean the same as "Otstan". Well, in St.Petersburg it is like this; maybe in Omsk it differs:-)
    I cann't imagine that I'm tired and said to my brother: "Poshel ty..." if I have no forces to speak with him

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    • Originally Posted by Andrey:
      I cann't imagine that I'm tired and said to my brother: "Poshel ty..." if I have no forces to speak with him :-)
      Hm... IMHO, it is quite appropriate (in special situation) to say like "Poshel ty... k edrene-fene... with such ideas... eh?" with some friendly inflexion, without any insulting. Not to anybody of course but to a friend of approx. the same age as I am.

      This means that we manage the Russian language better in St.Petersburg than the people in Omsk do:-) Or maybe worse... :-) Or maybe this is my personal trick :-)

      EDIT: After some reflections, I am more inclined to your opinion, Andrey. "Poshel ty..." sounds too rough in any case. Looks like I have really lost a good feeling of the Russian language during the last years when I live outside Russia :-(
      Last edited by Vitaly; 10 Jun 07, 16:16.

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      • Originally posted by Vitaly View Post
        Hm... IMHO, it is quite appropriate (in special situation) to say like "Poshel ty... k edrene-fene... with such ideas... eh?" with some friendly inflexion, without any insulting. Not to anybody of course but to a friend of approx. the same age as I am.
        Yes, "Poshel ty... k edrene-fene" equals to "Otstan". But in the movie there was no anything about "edrene-fene"....

        EDIT: After some reflections, I am more inclined to your opinion, Andrey. "Poshel ty..." sounds too rough in any case. Looks like I have really lost a good feeling of the Russian language during the last years when I live outside Russia :-(
        So what should be the correct translation of "Poshel ty..."?

        Comment


        • Originally Posted by Andrey:
          So what should be the correct translation of "Poshel ty..."?
          On my feelings, "get lost!" resembles "Poshel ty!" very well, if we take into account this special situation and inflection. But I am not such an expert in the English language, especially in its slang part;-) If you want the very exact translation, go in UK and ask some simple Englishman (e.g. a docker) about this:-) See also post of Psycho of 10.06.2007.

          Last days, I watched a very good Soviet movie "The Living and the Dead" ("Zhivye i mertvye", 1964). I would say that this is one of the best war movies I have ever seen. The book itself (of the same name, written by Konstantin Simonov, www.simonov.co.uk, also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Simonov) is even better, IMHO. But the movie is also very good! I am sure that English subtitles are available.

          It turned out in such a way that I never seen this movie before, only several small episodes. I have red the book www.amazon.com/Living-Dead-Konstantin-Simonov/dp/0828517037 (all the book for one night!:-)) several years ago, and I was very impressed. This book is the 1st part of the epic trilogy.

          This year, I red the 2nd part ("They are not born Soldiers"). This is also a very good book. IMHO, the only weak point is the character of Stalin, when Simonov tries to figure out his thoughts. This looks not very realistic, IMHO. I mean, when Simonov writes about thoughts of the made-up ("unrealistic") characters, it looks OK. But when he tries to show the Stalin's brains, the very natural question rises immediately: "How do you know what Stalin thought about...?" But anyway, the book is very good. This novel has also been filmed in 1967 but under other name: "Retribution" ("Vozmezdie"). Unfortunately, I can not find it for downloading. ArjLover.net does not have it :-(

          Now I dream to read the 3rd part – "The Last Summer". As I know, there is no film version of this novel, unfortunately. BTW, I am wonder: why it was not filmed? Probably, such strong reflections about the War and Stalin were not popular at the height of the Brezhnev's time :-)

          Conclusion: it is strongly recommended to read this trilogy and watch at least the 1st movie! Very probably, the 2nd one is also good but I can not guarantee this yet:-) What is your opinion, Andrey? Have you watched the "Retribution"?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Vitaly View Post
            Conclusion: it is strongly recommended to read this trilogy and watch at least the 1st movie! Very probably, the 2nd one is also good but I can not guarantee this yet:-) What is your opinion, Andrey? Have you watched the "Retribution"?
            I read all the 3 parts of the "Alive and dead".

            I saw only one movie - based on part 1 and it is in my list.

            Part 3 is a very good description of how Soviet army scale military mechanism worked in 1944 in Byelorussia during Operation "Bagration".

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            • voroshilov's sniper

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              • Thanks for the link, Comrade stalin! :-)

                For other visitors: this video contains a documentary film (unfortunately, no English subtitles) about M.Ulianov, the famous Russian actor who screened the character of G.Zhukov in all (I think in all) Soviet war movies (where Zhukov appeared, of course). + A number of episodes from his the most famous movies. M.Ulianov passed away March 26 2007...

                EDIT: well, 1st episode is understandable without any subtitles :-)
                Last edited by Vitaly; 12 Jun 07, 13:30.

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                • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                  How is about "They fought for the Motherland"?

                  Can you give wider description of your impression from the movies?

                  For example, did "72 metres" change your opinion about modern Russian submariners?
                  I'm still looking for "They fought for the Motherland" with subtitles at a fair price.
                  I am not sure what wider description of the movies you expect me to give.
                  Maybe you want to read that my stereotypical images of Russian soldiers / airmen / submariners has been overturned. As I have written before though,
                  I did not hold any particular stereotypes. I sort of assumed that there would be a wide variety of men with a similar esprit de corps to servicemen from my country with the same mixture of strengths and weaknesses. The films have all been made very well technically with good plots, realistic dialogue, fine acting etc but I don't draw conclusions about them being a reliable window on the world. I could pick up the messages in "Peace for a newcomer" with the kindness to the German woman, the smacking rather than shooting of the young nazi, the GI with his truck full of pin-ups and boose etc, but they don't convince me to adopt a particular view and neither do they spoil my enjoyment.
                  I suppose overall a favourable impression is created of Russian soldiers and people in general which is in contrast to the impression created for me by most Hollywood output of Americans at war. I have also been impressed to see scenes and dialogue in most of the films that I would describe as "warts and all", and the humour which counterbalance those few bits that veer towards propaganda.
                  I wish more could get an airing on British TV. I still recall watching as a boy some subtitled Polish films about the Warsaw uprising with left quite an impression on me. I think many of the Soviet and Russian films would affect a British audience.
                  What about you Andrey? Have you viewed many old British war films, and if so, do you draw conclusions from them?
                  BTW, thanks for correcting my dismal Russian

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                    I'm still looking for "They fought for the Motherland" with subtitles at a fair price.
                    I am not sure what wider description of the movies you expect me to give.
                    Maybe you want to read that my stereotypical images of Russian soldiers / airmen / submariners has been overturned.
                    1. It is interesting for me what is interesting an Englishman as some facts that are ordinary for a Russian can be amazing for an Englishman.

                    2. The more info about movie is written the better it is.

                    3. About stereotypical images....

                    Yes, I want to read that your stereotypical images of Russian soldiers / airmen / submariners has been overturned.

                    Any Russian, British, American have got stereotypical images of Soviets, British, American. I myself have got such images and I am not afraid to speak about it because a stereotypical image is an image with the typical kinds of a concrete nation. For example, an American like to place feet on a table and to chew chewing gum. A British is a stiff cold gentleman. I have got stereotypes about how they fought and it is wrong to speak those stereotypes were always wrong. Any army of WWII had its own kinds in military operations and I don't think it is bad to sdpeak so or it never existed. A Soviet infantry attack differed from a British or Americam infantry attack. A Soviet method of fighting against German panzers differed from British or American method. And I don't believe you have not your own impression about such kinds...

                    The problem is that sometimes such stereotypes were distorted or exagerrated for propaganda purposes.

                    To look Soviet/Russian movies means to get the Soviet/Russian version of such stereotypes. The more Soviet/Russian movies you see the more SOVIET/RUSSIAN stereotype will be stronger in your mind and it will fight with Western one of Cold War time. Maybe, you'll become a Red

                    What about you Andrey? Have you viewed many old British war films, and if so, do you draw conclusions from them?
                    I saw

                    1. Battle for Britain
                    2. Sands of Ivodjima (in English)
                    3. The Longest day
                    4. Tora-Tora-Tora
                    5. The Hill (with Shon Connory)
                    6. A movie about Tobruk
                    7. A movie about train with Allied POWs which run away to Switzerland.
                    8. Battle in the La-Platta Bay
                    9. Memphis Bell
                    10. Dirty dozen
                    11. Midway

                    Sorry, I don't remember which of them were British and which - American...

                    I liked the most of them.

                    If it is a thread about British military movies (and if my opinion was interesting to anyone) I would write more.

                    Comment


                    • Don't feel bad with Hollywood. They never get movies about Marines right, in WW2 anyway.

                      This is earlier than what we are discussing, but why are there no Russian movies about WW1? Is it considered shameful or is it that the Tsar is still considered to be a villain and that was his war?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Swampwolf View Post
                        This is earlier than what we are discussing, but why are there no Russian movies about WW1? Is it considered shameful or is it that the Tsar is still considered to be a villain and that was his war?
                        Here is :
                        Agonia: http://www.sharereactor.ru/movies/6384

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Swampwolf View Post
                          Don't feel bad with Hollywood. They never get movies about Marines right, in WW2 anyway.
                          How is about "Sands of Ivodjima" (the old b/w version)? I think it is an excellet movie.

                          This is earlier than what we are discussing, but why are there no Russian movies about WW1? Is it considered shameful or is it that the Tsar is still considered to be a villain and that was his war?
                          There were a few movies where it was shown
                          - epic "The Tikhii Don" ("The queit Don")
                          - epic "Hozhdenie po mukam" (hmmm... Vitaly, can give the correct translation)
                          - "Moonzund" (about the sea battles in the Baltic in 1916-17)
                          - the brand new EXCELLENT Russian "The Death of the Empire"

                          Danngoc said very well about "Agony" (it is not about the war only, it is mainly about Rasputin and its influence)

                          But yes, in the USSR WWI was considered (and called) Imperialistic War where there were no correct sides.

                          Often its events were shown as a foreword to events of the Civil War.
                          Last edited by Andrey; 13 Jun 07, 03:21.

                          Comment


                          • Originally Posted by Andrey:
                            - epic "The Tikhii Don" ("The queit Don")
                            - epic "Hozhdenie po mukam" (hmmm... Vitaly, can give the correct translation)
                            The Wikipedia gives "The Silent Don" and "The Road to Calvary", respectively. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michail...vich_Sholokhov and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksei...aevich_Tolstoi. The latter could better be expressed by Latin "Via Dolorosa" or "Via Crucis"; it means the same but more poetical, IMHO.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                              1. It is interesting for me what is interesting an Englishman as some facts that are ordinary for a Russian can be amazing for an Englishman.

                              2. The more info about movie is written the better it is.

                              3. About stereotypical images....

                              Yes, I want to read that your stereotypical images of Russian soldiers / airmen / submariners has been overturned.

                              Any Russian, British, American have got stereotypical images of Soviets, British, American. I myself have got such images and I am not afraid to speak about it because a stereotypical image is an image with the typical kinds of a concrete nation. For example, an American like to place feet on a table and to chew chewing gum. A British is a stiff cold gentleman. I have got stereotypes about how they fought and it is wrong to speak those stereotypes were always wrong. Any army of WWII had its own kinds in military operations and I don't think it is bad to sdpeak so or it never existed. A Soviet infantry attack differed from a British or Americam infantry attack. A Soviet method of fighting against German panzers differed from British or American method. And I don't believe you have not your own impression about such kinds...

                              The problem is that sometimes such stereotypes were distorted or exagerrated for propaganda purposes.

                              To look Soviet/Russian movies means to get the Soviet/Russian version of such stereotypes. The more Soviet/Russian movies you see the more SOVIET/RUSSIAN stereotype will be stronger in your mind and it will fight with Western one of Cold War time. Maybe, you'll become a Red



                              I saw

                              1. Battle for Britain
                              2. Sands of Ivodjima (in English)
                              3. The Longest day
                              4. Tora-Tora-Tora
                              5. The Hill (with Shon Connory)
                              6. A movie about Tobruk
                              7. A movie about train with Allied POWs which run away to Switzerland.
                              8. Battle in the La-Platta Bay
                              9. Memphis Bell
                              10. Dirty dozen
                              11. Midway

                              Sorry, I don't remember which of them were British and which - American...

                              I liked the most of them.

                              If it is a thread about British military movies (and if my opinion was interesting to anyone) I would write more.
                              Those stereotypes are really funny.

                              My stereotypes of a Russia are; you always have a fur hat on and look like you just came in out of the cold.

                              All of the movies you mentioned above Andrey, I am positive are American with the possible exception of 8. Battle in the La-Platta Bay. I'll have to look for that one. Never heard of it which is funny.

                              Swampwolf is talking about the two recent films by Clint Eastwood on Iwo Jima, Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima. Personally I thought they were okay movies, not as great as they were hyped up to be, but not bad.

                              The one movie on your list I do not believe to be very realistic is Memphis Belle. The would NEVER go around for another try at the target, they would go to there secondary target instead. Twelve O'clock High is a much better film about the bombers even though it was made in 1949.

                              The Great Raid is a recent war movie I recommend

                              http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0326905/

                              Its about a ranger raid to free a group of American prisoners of war in the Philippines. It really was an amazing raid in that they only lost two men on the whole raid. The sad part is that after I watched the movie, I realized that one of the men killed was the son of a children's author I read a lot as a kid. I don't know if the movie is available in Russian subtitles, as it was box-office flop here. But it if you can see it, its well worth it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                                1. It is interesting for me what is interesting an Englishman as some facts that are ordinary for a Russian can be amazing for an Englishman.

                                2. The more info about movie is written the better it is.

                                3. About stereotypical images....

                                Yes, I want to read that your stereotypical images of Russian soldiers / airmen / submariners has been overturned.

                                Any Russian, British, American have got stereotypical images of Soviets, British, American. I myself have got such images and I am not afraid to speak about it because a stereotypical image is an image with the typical kinds of a concrete nation. For example, an American like to place feet on a table and to chew chewing gum. A British is a stiff cold gentleman. I have got stereotypes about how they fought and it is wrong to speak those stereotypes were always wrong. Any army of WWII had its own kinds in military operations and I don't think it is bad to sdpeak so or it never existed. A Soviet infantry attack differed from a British or Americam infantry attack. A Soviet method of fighting against German panzers differed from British or American method. And I don't believe you have not your own impression about such kinds...

                                The problem is that sometimes such stereotypes were distorted or exagerrated for propaganda purposes.

                                To look Soviet/Russian movies means to get the Soviet/Russian version of such stereotypes. The more Soviet/Russian movies you see the more SOVIET/RUSSIAN stereotype will be stronger in your mind and it will fight with Western one of Cold War time. Maybe, you'll become a Red



                                I saw

                                1. Battle for Britain
                                2. Sands of Ivodjima (in English)
                                3. The Longest day
                                4. Tora-Tora-Tora
                                5. The Hill (with Shon Connory)
                                6. A movie about Tobruk
                                7. A movie about train with Allied POWs which run away to Switzerland.
                                8. Battle in the La-Platta Bay
                                9. Memphis Bell
                                10. Dirty dozen
                                11. Midway

                                Sorry, I don't remember which of them were British and which - American...

                                I liked the most of them.

                                If it is a thread about British military movies (and if my opinion was interesting to anyone) I would write more.
                                Your opinion is very interesting to me. I would not want to detract from this excellent thread about Soviet / Russian movies, but just to correct Col Dyess:
                                The Battle of Britain is a British movie. Good aerial sequences and music but weak otherwise. Better are The Way to the Stars, The Dambusters for RAF portrayals.
                                The Battle of the River Plate is British and a good example of the factual naval war film - like Sink the Bismarck, The Cruel Sea, In Which We Serve and San Demetrio London.
                                The Hill is British - about a military prison camp.
                                The train film is Von Ryan's Express with Frank Sinatra - US
                                Tobruk I can't recall in detail butI think was a rather inaccurate US movie.
                                I agree that 12 o' clock High- if it is the one I'm thinking of with Gregory Peck was better than Memphis Bell.
                                Perhaps you saw The Sands of Iwo Jima in b & w with John Wayne. A bit Hollywood for my taste but it included some genuine combat footage I think.
                                The Longest Day was a joint US Brit movie and was closely based on Cornelius Ryan's book as was A Bridge Too Far - British.
                                On the subject of stereotypes, the main victims are theGertmans, usually portrayed as fanatical nazis or idiots - the latter particularly in POW camp films (you must have seen The Great Escape Andrey!)
                                One of the best films to challenge these stereotypes was Das Boot - an interesting comparison with 72 Metres.
                                I agree that stereotypes can be shaped by propaganda and then become entrenched. I relate to thge swaggering boastful, gum chewing, cigar chomping, womanising GI portrayal, and I understand your perceptionof the stiff upper lip Brit. I don't see anything wrong in portraying different tactics used in infantry attackes eg - except Enemy at The Gate!
                                I don't think I will turn red watching all these Russian Soviet movies - just a little pink maybe. Better red than dead as they used to say!

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