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Soviet/Russian Myths of the Great Patriotic War 1-The Second Front

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by stalin View Post
    but they wouldn't even venture into Russia, had they been a lesser nazi types.
    Well I'lll be dipped in , Stalin got it right, big-time!

    Well done.... hey, wait a minute, aren't you paraphrasing something I said last year?

    ! I knew it was too good to be true!

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  • Bladerunnernyc
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    Hm,using my calculator,I have the following:
    1939-1942:922000 X90 %= 830000
    1942-1943:2077000 X 90 % =1870000
    1943-1944:1457000 X62 % =900000
    1944-1945:2000000 X 67 % =1400000
    Total permanent losses:=5000000
    You are saying :10758000
    Some thing contradictory ???
    Fundamentally :both figures (5 and 10 million) are wrong :they are Russian claims ermanent losses is something only used by the Russians;there is also no way the Russians could know the numbers of German dead and disabled (!).The same for the Germans :both armies did not waste their time counting the dead of the adversary .
    Last point :the 3OOOOOO German POW :it is wrong :the overwhelming majority were soldiers,that became POW,when Germany capitulated .
    If you are including them,all Germans became casualties on 9 may 1945,the same for the Japanese:counting all Japanese in China and Japan as POW in september 1945 ?
    Glantz did the defining work on the casualties suffered by Germany and Russia- at least in this country. He also lectured for years in Russia and lectures at the US Army War College and I can't think of anybody who knows more about what happened in Russia compared to David.

    This about covers everything;

    http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publica...g-war41-45.pdf

    http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...31&Location=U2

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
    Red Army Wartime Casualties

    Total w/Wounded Killed, Missing, or Captured
    1941 4,308,094 2,993,803
    1942 7,080,801 2,993,536
    1943 7,483,647 1,977,127
    1944 6,503,204 1,412,335
    1945 2,823,381 631,633

    Official Total 28,199,127 10,008,434



    GERMAN PERMANENT LOSSES IN THE EAST
    (Dead, missing, or disabled) (Not including wounded)

    September 1939-1 September 1942 922,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
    1 September 1942-20 November 1943 2,077,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
    20 November 1943- June 1944 1,500,000 est. (80 % in the East)
    June-November 1944 1,457,000 (903,000 or 62 % in the East)
    30 December 1944- 30 April 1945 2,000,000 (67 % in the East)
    =====
    Total Losses to
    30 April 1945 11,135,500
    3,888,000 dead
    3,035,700 captured
    =====
    Total Armed Forces Losses 13,488,000
    10,758,000 (80 % in the East)- Not including wounded
    Hm,using my calculator,I have the following:
    1939-1942:922000 X90 %= 830000
    1942-1943:2077000 X 90 % =1870000
    1943-1944:1457000 X62 % =900000
    1944-1945:2000000 X 67 % =1400000
    Total permanent losses:=5000000
    You are saying :10758000
    Some thing contradictory ???
    Fundamentally :both figures (5 and 10 million) are wrong :they are Russian claims ermanent losses is something only used by the Russians;there is also no way the Russians could know the numbers of German dead and disabled (!).The same for the Germans :both armies did not waste their time counting the dead of the adversary .
    Last point :the 3OOOOOO German POW :it is wrong :the overwhelming majority were soldiers,that became POW,when Germany capitulated .
    If you are including them,all Germans became casualties on 9 may 1945,the same for the Japanese:counting all Japanese in China and Japan as POW in september 1945 ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bladerunnernyc
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    some well-known figures :combat-losses (dead,wounded,missing)of the German army in the East:
    1941 :0,83 million
    1942:1.1 million
    1943 :1.6 million
    1944:2 million
    the German army was bleeding in the east,and that's why the importance of the so-called 'decisive' battles is very relative .
    Most of the casualties happened in 'minor' battles and daily fighting .
    Red Army Wartime Casualties

    Total w/Wounded Killed, Missing, or Captured
    1941 4,308,094 2,993,803
    1942 7,080,801 2,993,536
    1943 7,483,647 1,977,127
    1944 6,503,204 1,412,335
    1945 2,823,381 631,633

    Official Total 28,199,127 10,008,434



    GERMAN PERMANENT LOSSES IN THE EAST
    (Dead, missing, or disabled) (Not including wounded)

    September 1939-1 September 1942 922,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
    1 September 1942-20 November 1943 2,077,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
    20 November 1943- June 1944 1,500,000 est. (80 % in the East)
    June-November 1944 1,457,000 (903,000 or 62 % in the East)
    30 December 1944- 30 April 1945 2,000,000 (67 % in the East)
    =====
    Total Losses to
    30 April 1945 11,135,500
    3,888,000 dead
    3,035,700 captured
    =====
    Total Armed Forces Losses 13,488,000
    10,758,000 (80 % in the East)- Not including wounded
    Last edited by Bladerunnernyc; 13 Jun 10, 16:49.

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    some well-known figures :combat-losses (dead,wounded,missing)of the German army in the East:
    1941 :0,83 million
    1942:1.1 million
    1943 :1.6 million
    1944:2 million
    the German army was bleeding in the east,and that's why the importance of the so-called 'decisive' battles is very relative .
    Most of the casualties happened in 'minor' battles and daily fighting .

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  • grognard
    replied
    The German Army was bled white in The Soviet Union, the sheer numbers involved and the ferocity of the constant fighting are what did it. Look at the number of German units in the East vs. the number in Africa and then in Italy. German sources for losses through 44 are accurate, and clearly show most of casualties occured vs. RKKA.

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  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    That's your opinion, and you do a pretty good job of defending it, but there were too many variables involved to say it's an absolute.

    The war was 2 years old when Hilter's attack caused the USSR to have to switch sides. That's why I have trouble accepting that 80% idea.
    They also left the war 4 months before the end, not counting that last minute land-grab in Manchuria.

    And it would have been easy for Germany to win against the USSR. All they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned Nazis, and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime.
    There is something contradictory in you post:
    1)there were too many variables involvel to say it's an absolute
    2)all they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned nazis,and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime
    Besides oint 2 is very dubious :there is no proof that,with an other occupation policy,the Red Army would have deserted .
    In fact,we do not know how many deserted :the German figures are some 5.3 million of POW,but a POW is not necessarely a deserter.

    Leave a comment:


  • stalin
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    it would have been easy for Germany to win against the USSR. All they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned Nazis, and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime.
    but they wouldn't even venture into Russia, had they been a lesser nazi types.
    as for defections: firing squads were always at hand to deal with the problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
    The Soviets broke the back of Germany's land forces long before the Western Allies had to come to grips with them on land on any serious scale. The fact that they may have done this with less 'efficiency', and lost a lot more men doing so, makes no odds from the Western viewpoint. The Wehrmacht was broken in the East, end of story.>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Great point and 100% true. One of the things that I always find amusing is the boards regading the eastern front- at any site! All the 'generals' point out that Hitler should have done this, Hitler made this mistake here at Kiev, Hitler made this blah blah blah- they make it sound as though defeating the Soviet Union in 1941 was possible- it wasn't. For every mistake that the Germans made- so did the Russians- it all balances out. Having fought for this country I've experienced how fluid battle can be- nothing always goes the way you plan unless EVERYTHING is perfect.

    I've often been asked when Germany lost WW 2? No Sealion? Failure at Moscow? Stalingrad? Kursk? I always answer the same way- on June 22, 1941 at 3:15 am- the minute the first shots were fired on Russia.
    That's your opinion, and you do a pretty good job of defending it, but there were too many variables involved to say it's an absolute.

    The war was 2 years old when Hilter's attack caused the USSR to have to switch sides. That's why I have trouble accepting that 80% idea.
    They also left the war 4 months before the end, not counting that last minute land-grab in Manchuria.

    And it would have been easy for Germany to win against the USSR. All they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned Nazis, and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Fraser
    replied
    Krivosheev's information is probably as accurate as it can be, but that is still only a best guess, and no one truly knows how many Soviet citizens died in the Great Patriotic War. The baselline data is highly suspect, as a cursory examination of the Soviet census process will reveal.

    I'm going from memory, but shortly before the war, Stalin ordered a census (1937?) and was most disappointed in the figures. The had expected greater population growth under Communist prosperity, and promptly challenged the census. The man in charge was arrested and a new census was begun, which promptly came back with data more amenable to Stalin. Similarly, I don't recall another census anytime before the mid-1950s, and that's a long time after the war ended.

    It seems to me that given the ambiguous data prior to the GPW and the delay in confirming population data after 1945, debating casualty figures is rather futile. My best guess is that somewhere around 26 million Soviet citizens died during that period, most of them violently. I came to that conclusion after years of believing the number was more like 30 million, from reading western and Soviet histories and interviewing Soviet and former Soviet people of all nationalities with ties to that period. That's a big enough number that it is still impossible to comprehend, roughly the population of Canada at the time I was reading. It was a catastrophe for the people there.

    Regards
    Scott Fraser

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  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by vathra View Post
    I think problem is in the way it was quoted.
    Soviet irrevocable losses were around 15 million, in that figure included dead, missing and captured (11,2 million, you gave here), but there were also 3,8 million soldiers that were discharged from the army, after being wounded/sick.
    Those figures are from Krivosheev's study, and they give number given by Glantz.

    Regarding german casualties, most recent statistical study by Dr. Overmans claims that total german military dead were around 5,3 million, including those who died in captivity.
    Also, germans, like soviets, discharged around 3 million people from army.
    If you add number of PoW, you will in both cases be very close to figures Glantz gave.
    on the german casualties :the figures given by Glantz are impossible and the figures by Overmans :well....let's say that I have no faith in them.
    one exemple :he include those who died in captivity ,but the figures of the dead in captivity are varying from :363000 to 1093000,thus there are no reliable figures for the dead in captivity .

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  • vathra
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    about the 15 million Russian military dead:that figure also is wrong,because to big.
    the official Russian figures (available on the web ) compiled by Krivosheev are the following :
    iirevocable losses (including:dead ,missing and prisonners of war):
    1941:3167673
    1942:3258216
    1943:2312426
    1944:1763891
    1945:800817
    total:11273026
    not all of them were dead !
    conclusion :Glantz was very naive to use the fantast figures on German and Russian losses on his lecture(which is available on the web) and if he had done his homework,he had known that they were impossible .
    I think problem is in the way it was quoted.
    Soviet irrevocable losses were around 15 million, in that figure included dead, missing and captured (11,2 million, you gave here), but there were also 3,8 million soldiers that were discharged from the army, after being wounded/sick.
    Those figures are from Krivosheev's study, and they give number given by Glantz.

    Regarding german casualties, most recent statistical study by Dr. Overmans claims that total german military dead were around 5,3 million, including those who died in captivity.
    Also, germans, like soviets, discharged around 3 million people from army.
    If you add number of PoW, you will in both cases be very close to figures Glantz gave.
    Last edited by vathra; 11 Jun 10, 05:45.

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  • ljadw
    replied
    about the German losses from june 1941 till february 1942 (some 930000):
    PLEASE do not mix dead and casualties :the combined LOSSES of the USA in the 2 WW's were more than 930000,the DEAD figures were some 530000,but the total losses were more than 930000

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  • ljadw
    replied
    about the 15 million Russian military dead:that figure also is wrong,because to big.
    the official Russian figures (available on the web ) compiled by Krivosheev are the following :
    iirevocable losses (including:dead ,missing and prisonners of war):
    1941:3167673
    1942:3258216
    1943:2312426
    1944:1763891
    1945:800817
    total:11273026
    not all of them were dead !
    conclusion :Glantz was very naive to use the fantast figures on German and Russian losses on his lecture(which is available on the web) and if he had done his homework,he had known that they were impossible .

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  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
    I use the best- Col. David Glantz- the foremost expert on the Russian campaign in this country..

    This was my quote- Hitler lost more men at Stalingrad alone compared to the total combined losses of the United States in WW 1 & 2. Many of the best troops in the German Army were destroyed at Stalingrad

    1. Over 80% of the German casualties in WW 2 were on the Eastern Front.
    Better yet, in WW 2, the Permanent German Armed Forces losses (dead/missing/disabled) were almost 13,500,000, of that figure, 10,800,000 were inflicted fighting Russia. If you add Germmany's allies as well- the figure goes over 13 million in Russia.

    2. The Russian military dead in WW 2 were almost 15,000,000- HALF AGAIN the size of the ENTIRE US Armed Forces. If you had the wounded, missing etc, it comes out between 29,000,000-35,000,000. That is directly from Glantz's lecture at West Point and that doesn't even involved the civilian casualties..

    3. Manstein himself said in 'Lost Victories' that many of the best troops in the German Army died at Stalingrad-especially the engineer battalions, hence my comments there.

    3. From the period of 22 June 1941 to 31 Jan 1942, Hitler lost more men compared to all of the COMBINED United States losses in WW 1 & WW 2.

    4. In WW 1 the United States Military lost around 116,000 killed-all services and in WW 2, the United States Military lost 416,000 men killed-all services, in the Stalingrad Campaign, from the 3rd week of July 1942, to the end on 2 Feb 1943, Hitler lost more killed compared to the United States losses in WW 1 & 2 combined. Think about it, of the 850,000 Axis that were casualties in the Stalingrad campaign- how many left Russia alive?

    Don't forget that Hitler lost over 500 planes of all types as well.

    Hitler lost in the Stalingrad campaign over 400,000 Germans killed, captured or wounded. He lost 120,000 Romanians, 100,000 Italians and between 115-125,000 Hungarians- it comes out to over 850,000 men.


    I said 'Hitler' lost, now add up the Axis forces! The Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies, the Italian 8th Army (Armata Italiana in Russia) the Hungarian 2nd Army, add to that the Luftwaffe lost almost 300 Junkers Ju 52 transports, almost 170 HE 111's etc.




















    Jowett, Philip S. The Italian Army 194045 (1): Europe 19401943.

    Thomas, Dr. Nigel, and, Szabo, Laszlo Pal (2008). The Royal Hungarian Army in World war II. page 48
    1)to put it bluntly :the figures used by Glantz are BS
    10.8 million dead ,missing and disabled
    because
    a)total number mobilised by Germany :18 million (only a minority fought in the east)
    b)to the 10.8 million,one should ad the wounded:there are 3 wounded for 1 irrevocable loss:that should mean :30 million
    C) these figures are Russian propaganda figures ,with as aim rove that the Germans lost more men than the SU
    d)and (I forgot):to these figures:you should ad the number of German POW
    e)how could the Russians know the numbers of German disabled ?
    f)the official German figures are (till the end of 1944):
    dead :900000
    missing :1100000
    wounded :3500000
    g) there are no reliable figures for German losses in 1945
    h)it is impossible that the Germans lost 5.4 million dead,missing and wounded in 1945
    i)to get a figure of 10.8 million,the Russians counted all the Germans that became POW at the capitulation :totally wrong,unless you count also all the Japanese that became POW in september 1945 as casualties.

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