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Soviet/Russian Myths of the Great Patriotic War 1-The Second Front

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  • Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    it would have been easy for Germany to win against the USSR. All they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned Nazis, and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime.
    but they wouldn't even venture into Russia, had they been a lesser nazi types.
    as for defections: firing squads were always at hand to deal with the problem.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
      That's your opinion, and you do a pretty good job of defending it, but there were too many variables involved to say it's an absolute.

      The war was 2 years old when Hilter's attack caused the USSR to have to switch sides. That's why I have trouble accepting that 80% idea.
      They also left the war 4 months before the end, not counting that last minute land-grab in Manchuria.

      And it would have been easy for Germany to win against the USSR. All they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned Nazis, and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime.
      There is something contradictory in you post:
      1)there were too many variables involvel to say it's an absolute
      2)all they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned nazis,and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime
      Besides oint 2 is very dubious :there is no proof that,with an other occupation policy,the Red Army would have deserted .
      In fact,we do not know how many deserted :the German figures are some 5.3 million of POW,but a POW is not necessarely a deserter.

      Comment


      • The German Army was bled white in The Soviet Union, the sheer numbers involved and the ferocity of the constant fighting are what did it. Look at the number of German units in the East vs. the number in Africa and then in Italy. German sources for losses through 44 are accurate, and clearly show most of casualties occured vs. RKKA.

        Comment


        • some well-known figures :combat-losses (dead,wounded,missing)of the German army in the East:
          1941 :0,83 million
          1942:1.1 million
          1943 :1.6 million
          1944:2 million
          the German army was bleeding in the east,and that's why the importance of the so-called 'decisive' battles is very relative .
          Most of the casualties happened in 'minor' battles and daily fighting .

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
            some well-known figures :combat-losses (dead,wounded,missing)of the German army in the East:
            1941 :0,83 million
            1942:1.1 million
            1943 :1.6 million
            1944:2 million
            the German army was bleeding in the east,and that's why the importance of the so-called 'decisive' battles is very relative .
            Most of the casualties happened in 'minor' battles and daily fighting .
            Red Army Wartime Casualties

            Total w/Wounded Killed, Missing, or Captured
            1941 4,308,094 2,993,803
            1942 7,080,801 2,993,536
            1943 7,483,647 1,977,127
            1944 6,503,204 1,412,335
            1945 2,823,381 631,633

            Official Total 28,199,127 10,008,434



            GERMAN PERMANENT LOSSES IN THE EAST
            (Dead, missing, or disabled) (Not including wounded)

            September 1939-1 September 1942 922,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
            1 September 1942-20 November 1943 2,077,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
            20 November 1943- June 1944 1,500,000 est. (80 % in the East)
            June-November 1944 1,457,000 (903,000 or 62 % in the East)
            30 December 1944- 30 April 1945 2,000,000 (67 % in the East)
            =====
            Total Losses to
            30 April 1945 11,135,500
            3,888,000 dead
            3,035,700 captured
            =====
            Total Armed Forces Losses 13,488,000
            10,758,000 (80 % in the East)- Not including wounded
            Last edited by Bladerunnernyc; 13 Jun 10, 17:49.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
              Red Army Wartime Casualties

              Total w/Wounded Killed, Missing, or Captured
              1941 4,308,094 2,993,803
              1942 7,080,801 2,993,536
              1943 7,483,647 1,977,127
              1944 6,503,204 1,412,335
              1945 2,823,381 631,633

              Official Total 28,199,127 10,008,434



              GERMAN PERMANENT LOSSES IN THE EAST
              (Dead, missing, or disabled) (Not including wounded)

              September 1939-1 September 1942 922,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
              1 September 1942-20 November 1943 2,077,000 (Over 90 % in the East)
              20 November 1943- June 1944 1,500,000 est. (80 % in the East)
              June-November 1944 1,457,000 (903,000 or 62 % in the East)
              30 December 1944- 30 April 1945 2,000,000 (67 % in the East)
              =====
              Total Losses to
              30 April 1945 11,135,500
              3,888,000 dead
              3,035,700 captured
              =====
              Total Armed Forces Losses 13,488,000
              10,758,000 (80 % in the East)- Not including wounded
              Hm,using my calculator,I have the following:
              1939-1942:922000 X90 %= 830000
              1942-1943:2077000 X 90 % =1870000
              1943-1944:1457000 X62 % =900000
              1944-1945:2000000 X 67 % =1400000
              Total permanent losses:=5000000
              You are saying :10758000
              Some thing contradictory ???
              Fundamentally :both figures (5 and 10 million) are wrong :they are Russian claims ermanent losses is something only used by the Russians;there is also no way the Russians could know the numbers of German dead and disabled (!).The same for the Germans :both armies did not waste their time counting the dead of the adversary .
              Last point :the 3OOOOOO German POW :it is wrong :the overwhelming majority were soldiers,that became POW,when Germany capitulated .
              If you are including them,all Germans became casualties on 9 may 1945,the same for the Japanese:counting all Japanese in China and Japan as POW in september 1945 ?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                Hm,using my calculator,I have the following:
                1939-1942:922000 X90 %= 830000
                1942-1943:2077000 X 90 % =1870000
                1943-1944:1457000 X62 % =900000
                1944-1945:2000000 X 67 % =1400000
                Total permanent losses:=5000000
                You are saying :10758000
                Some thing contradictory ???
                Fundamentally :both figures (5 and 10 million) are wrong :they are Russian claims ermanent losses is something only used by the Russians;there is also no way the Russians could know the numbers of German dead and disabled (!).The same for the Germans :both armies did not waste their time counting the dead of the adversary .
                Last point :the 3OOOOOO German POW :it is wrong :the overwhelming majority were soldiers,that became POW,when Germany capitulated .
                If you are including them,all Germans became casualties on 9 may 1945,the same for the Japanese:counting all Japanese in China and Japan as POW in september 1945 ?
                Glantz did the defining work on the casualties suffered by Germany and Russia- at least in this country. He also lectured for years in Russia and lectures at the US Army War College and I can't think of anybody who knows more about what happened in Russia compared to David.

                This about covers everything;

                http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publica...g-war41-45.pdf

                http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...31&Location=U2

                Comment


                • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                  but they wouldn't even venture into Russia, had they been a lesser nazi types.
                  Well I'lll be dipped in , Stalin got it right, big-time!

                  Well done.... hey, wait a minute, aren't you paraphrasing something I said last year?

                  ! I knew it was too good to be true!
                  "Why is the Rum gone?"

                  -Captain Jack

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