Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Soviet/Russian Myths of the Great Patriotic War 1-The Second Front

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Soviets broke the back of Germany's land forces long before the Western Allies had to come to grips with them on land on any serious scale. The fact that they may have done this with less 'efficiency', and lost a lot more men doing so, makes no odds from the Western viewpoint. The Wehrmacht was broken in the East, end of story.>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Great point and 100% true. One of the things that I always find amusing is the boards regading the eastern front- at any site! All the 'generals' point out that Hitler should have done this, Hitler made this mistake here at Kiev, Hitler made this blah blah blah- they make it sound as though defeating the Soviet Union in 1941 was possible- it wasn't. For every mistake that the Germans made- so did the Russians- it all balances out. Having fought for this country I've experienced how fluid battle can be- nothing always goes the way you plan unless EVERYTHING is perfect.

    I've often been asked when Germany lost WW 2? No Sealion? Failure at Moscow? Stalingrad? Kursk? I always answer the same way- on June 22, 1941 at 3:15 am- the minute the first shots were fired on Russia.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by joea View Post
      So...how many Soviets died for every German? I think you forget the casualty ratio changed as the war went on some threads here have mentioned it and I belive glantz examines it in detail. One of the reasons for high Soviet casualties was the huge number of POWs captured at the beginning of the war who did not survive. You also forget that is was not just raw numbers for the German casualties but the loss of many experienced cadre (officers and NCOs as well as infantry) that meant the German Army of 1944 was not that of 1940-41.
      The German Army never fully recovered from the winter if 1941.

      Comment


      • Originally Posted by MMHE
        In 1943, over 250 thousand axis forces surrendered in Tunisia - more than at Stalingrad
        somehow, you forgot to mention how many Germans were killed at Stalingrad.
        Hitler lost more men at Stalingrad alone compared to the total combined losses of the United States in WW 1 & 2. Many of the best troops in the German Army were destroyed at Stalingrad

        Comment


        • somehow, you forgot to mention how many Germans were killed at Stalingrad.


          that's because the main events and fiercest battles were taking place on the Eastern Front.
          [/QUOTE]


          The Western Allies were blessed with total superiority in surface warships and air superiority. They didn't have to worry about fighting ANYWHERE unless it was a place they so decided on, such as NA, Sicily then Italy. The Russians had to fight along a thousand mile front that saw almost non-stop bloodshed from the first moments of the attack- to the last.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
            Hitler lost more men at Stalingrad alone compared to the total combined losses of the United States in WW 1 & 2. Many of the best troops in the German Army were destroyed at Stalingrad
            1) the US army (ONLY) losses in WWII were 936259 (source :Hyperwar),to add :losses of the navy and marines and those of WWI:unless you have a source,proving that Hitler lost more than 1.5 million men at Stalingrad,your statement is wrong.
            2)the units of the 6th army were not better,nor worse than the average units of the German army .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
              1) the US army (ONLY) losses in WWII were 936259 (source :Hyperwar),to add :losses of the navy and marines and those of WWI:unless you have a source,proving that Hitler lost more than 1.5 million men at Stalingrad,your statement is wrong.
              2)the units of the 6th army were not better,nor worse than the average units of the German army .
              416,000 Americans were killed in WW 2- source- any site that lists factual details- it is common knowledge Any site, information source or writer that states a million Americans died in WW 2 is absolute . 318,000 were in the Army AND 291,557 died in battle.

              http://www.archives.gov/research/arc...vy-casualties/

              I didn't add 'Army' in there- I should have, hence the number would have been 318,000 killed in WW 2- I will go back and add the word 'Army'.
              At Stalingrad Hitler had the 6th Army, most of the 4th Panzer Army, the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies, Italian 8th Army and 1000 Croatians. Estimates on the Axis dead are varied- if you want to go with how many returned home- over 900,000 died. The exact numbers are disbuted all over the internet- in text books etc, what is clear is that around 300,000 German troops were trapped in the pocket- of which between 90-100,000 were captured, around 30,000 were flown out and the rest were killed. Hitler also lost the Romanian 3rd and 4th armies.

              The 3rd army had 153,000 troops, the 4th army had 76,000 at the start of the Soviet Offensive. AFTER the battle was over- the Russians had only taken 3000 prisoners and only one division escaped.

              The Italian 8th Army- 140,000 men give or take as estimates are varied. 40,000 escaped and out of the rest, 3,000 would see Italy again.

              I haven't even got to the Hungarians yet, or the losses before the Soviets counterattacked.

              The 6th Army was Hitler's largest! The 'best troops' comes from Zietzler- you may have heard of him. When the pocket was finally destroyed on 2 Feb, 1943 Zietzler said; 'It's over- they are all gone...our largest army....those were the best soldiers we had....look how long they held out.'

              Kurt Zietzler 'Hitler Directs His War'.

              http://www.history.army.mil/catalog/pubs/30/30.html
              Last edited by Erkki; 16 May 10, 14:54.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
                416,000 Americans were killed in WW 2- source- any site that lists factual details- it is common knowledge Any site, information source or writer that states a million Americans died in WW 2 is absolute . 318,000 were in the Army AND 291,557 died in battle.

                http://www.archives.gov/research/arc...vy-casualties/

                I didn't add 'Army' in there- I should have, hence the number would have been 318,000 killed in WW 2- I will go back and add the word 'Army'.
                At Stalingrad Hitler had the 6th Army, most of the 4th Panzer Army, the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies, Italian 8th Army and 1000 Croatians. Estimates on the Axis dead are varied- if you want to go with how many returned home- over 900,000 died. The exact numbers are disbuted all over the internet- in text books etc, what is clear is that around 300,000 German troops were trapped in the pocket- of which between 90-100,000 were captured, around 30,000 were flown out and the rest were killed. Hitler also lost the Romanian 3rd and 4th armies.

                The 3rd army had 153,000 troops, the 4th army had 76,000 at the start of the Soviet Offensive. AFTER the battle was over- the Russians had only taken 3000 prisoners and only one division escaped.

                The Italian 8th Army- 140,000 men give or take as estimates are varied. 40,000 escaped and out of the rest, 3,000 would see Italy again.

                I haven't even got to the Hungarians yet, or the losses before the Soviets counterattacked.

                The 6th Army was Hitler's largest! The 'best troops' comes from Zietzler- you may have heard of him. When the pocket was finally destroyed on 2 Feb, 1943 Zietzler said; 'It's over- they are all gone...our largest army....those were the best soldiers we had....look how long they held out.'

                Kurt Zietzler 'Hitler Directs His War'.

                http://www.history.army.mil/catalog/pubs/30/30.html
                you wrote :more than the combined LOSSES :losses are not only killed,the number of wounded was much greater,add also the missing .
                There were NO 300000 Germans trapped in the pocket:do not trust figures that are circulating on the web
                The official German figures are :
                Transported from the pocket :wounded :15911,not wounded :434
                Remaining in the pocket:158630,of which 11036 were dead and 147594 were missing .
                There were also 7765 not clarified cases.
                Source :WW II stats com:google on SS losses,go to 'News',you will finf "Abwiicklungsstab Stalingrad ".

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                  you wrote :more than the combined LOSSES :losses are not only killed,the number of wounded was much greater,add also the missing .
                  There were NO 300000 Germans trapped in the pocket:do not trust figures that are circulating on the web
                  The official German figures are :
                  Transported from the pocket :wounded :15911,not wounded :434
                  Remaining in the pocket:158630,of which 11036 were dead and 147594 were missing .
                  There were also 7765 not clarified cases.
                  Source :WW II stats com:google on SS losses,go to 'News',you will finf "Abwiicklungsstab Stalingrad ".
                  I use the best- Col. David Glantz- the foremost expert on the Russian campaign in this country..

                  This was my quote- Hitler lost more men at Stalingrad alone compared to the total combined losses of the United States in WW 1 & 2. Many of the best troops in the German Army were destroyed at Stalingrad

                  1. Over 80% of the German casualties in WW 2 were on the Eastern Front.
                  Better yet, in WW 2, the Permanent German Armed Forces losses (dead/missing/disabled) were almost 13,500,000, of that figure, 10,800,000 were inflicted fighting Russia. If you add Germmany's allies as well- the figure goes over 13 million in Russia.

                  2. The Russian military dead in WW 2 were almost 15,000,000- HALF AGAIN the size of the ENTIRE US Armed Forces. If you had the wounded, missing etc, it comes out between 29,000,000-35,000,000. That is directly from Glantz's lecture at West Point and that doesn't even involved the civilian casualties..

                  3. Manstein himself said in 'Lost Victories' that many of the best troops in the German Army died at Stalingrad-especially the engineer battalions, hence my comments there.

                  3. From the period of 22 June 1941 to 31 Jan 1942, Hitler lost more men compared to all of the COMBINED United States losses in WW 1 & WW 2.

                  4. In WW 1 the United States Military lost around 116,000 killed-all services and in WW 2, the United States Military lost 416,000 men killed-all services, in the Stalingrad Campaign, from the 3rd week of July 1942, to the end on 2 Feb 1943, Hitler lost more killed compared to the United States losses in WW 1 & 2 combined. Think about it, of the 850,000 Axis that were casualties in the Stalingrad campaign- how many left Russia alive?

                  Don't forget that Hitler lost over 500 planes of all types as well.

                  Hitler lost in the Stalingrad campaign over 400,000 Germans killed, captured or wounded. He lost 120,000 Romanians, 100,000 Italians and between 115-125,000 Hungarians- it comes out to over 850,000 men.


                  I said 'Hitler' lost, now add up the Axis forces! The Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies, the Italian 8th Army (Armata Italiana in Russia) the Hungarian 2nd Army, add to that the Luftwaffe lost almost 300 Junkers Ju 52 transports, almost 170 HE 111's etc.




















                  Jowett, Philip S. The Italian Army 194045 (1): Europe 19401943.

                  Thomas, Dr. Nigel, and, Szabo, Laszlo Pal (2008). The Royal Hungarian Army in World war II. page 48
                  Last edited by Bladerunnernyc; 10 Jun 10, 18:13.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
                    I use the best- Col. David Glantz- the foremost expert on the Russian campaign in this country..

                    This was my quote- Hitler lost more men at Stalingrad alone compared to the total combined losses of the United States in WW 1 & 2. Many of the best troops in the German Army were destroyed at Stalingrad

                    1. Over 80% of the German casualties in WW 2 were on the Eastern Front.
                    Better yet, in WW 2, the Permanent German Armed Forces losses (dead/missing/disabled) were almost 13,500,000, of that figure, 10,800,000 were inflicted fighting Russia. If you add Germmany's allies as well- the figure goes over 13 million in Russia.

                    2. The Russian military dead in WW 2 were almost 15,000,000- HALF AGAIN the size of the ENTIRE US Armed Forces. If you had the wounded, missing etc, it comes out between 29,000,000-35,000,000. That is directly from Glantz's lecture at West Point and that doesn't even involved the civilian casualties..

                    3. Manstein himself said in 'Lost Victories' that many of the best troops in the German Army died at Stalingrad-especially the engineer battalions, hence my comments there.

                    3. From the period of 22 June 1941 to 31 Jan 1942, Hitler lost more men compared to all of the COMBINED United States losses in WW 1 & WW 2.

                    4. In WW 1 the United States Military lost around 116,000 killed-all services and in WW 2, the United States Military lost 416,000 men killed-all services, in the Stalingrad Campaign, from the 3rd week of July 1942, to the end on 2 Feb 1943, Hitler lost more killed compared to the United States losses in WW 1 & 2 combined. Think about it, of the 850,000 Axis that were casualties in the Stalingrad campaign- how many left Russia alive?

                    Don't forget that Hitler lost over 500 planes of all types as well.

                    Hitler lost in the Stalingrad campaign over 400,000 Germans killed, captured or wounded. He lost 120,000 Romanians, 100,000 Italians and between 115-125,000 Hungarians- it comes out to over 850,000 men.


                    I said 'Hitler' lost, now add up the Axis forces! The Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies, the Italian 8th Army (Armata Italiana in Russia) the Hungarian 2nd Army, add to that the Luftwaffe lost almost 300 Junkers Ju 52 transports, almost 170 HE 111's etc.




















                    Jowett, Philip S. The Italian Army 194045 (1): Europe 19401943.

                    Thomas, Dr. Nigel, and, Szabo, Laszlo Pal (2008). The Royal Hungarian Army in World war II. page 48
                    1)to put it bluntly :the figures used by Glantz are BS
                    10.8 million dead ,missing and disabled
                    because
                    a)total number mobilised by Germany :18 million (only a minority fought in the east)
                    b)to the 10.8 million,one should ad the wounded:there are 3 wounded for 1 irrevocable loss:that should mean :30 million
                    C) these figures are Russian propaganda figures ,with as aim rove that the Germans lost more men than the SU
                    d)and (I forgot):to these figures:you should ad the number of German POW
                    e)how could the Russians know the numbers of German disabled ?
                    f)the official German figures are (till the end of 1944):
                    dead :900000
                    missing :1100000
                    wounded :3500000
                    g) there are no reliable figures for German losses in 1945
                    h)it is impossible that the Germans lost 5.4 million dead,missing and wounded in 1945
                    i)to get a figure of 10.8 million,the Russians counted all the Germans that became POW at the capitulation :totally wrong,unless you count also all the Japanese that became POW in september 1945 as casualties.

                    Comment


                    • about the 15 million Russian military dead:that figure also is wrong,because to big.
                      the official Russian figures (available on the web ) compiled by Krivosheev are the following :
                      iirevocable losses (including:dead ,missing and prisonners of war):
                      1941:3167673
                      1942:3258216
                      1943:2312426
                      1944:1763891
                      1945:800817
                      total:11273026
                      not all of them were dead !
                      conclusion :Glantz was very naive to use the fantast figures on German and Russian losses on his lecture(which is available on the web) and if he had done his homework,he had known that they were impossible .

                      Comment


                      • about the German losses from june 1941 till february 1942 (some 930000):
                        PLEASE do not mix dead and casualties :the combined LOSSES of the USA in the 2 WW's were more than 930000,the DEAD figures were some 530000,but the total losses were more than 930000

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          about the 15 million Russian military dead:that figure also is wrong,because to big.
                          the official Russian figures (available on the web ) compiled by Krivosheev are the following :
                          iirevocable losses (including:dead ,missing and prisonners of war):
                          1941:3167673
                          1942:3258216
                          1943:2312426
                          1944:1763891
                          1945:800817
                          total:11273026
                          not all of them were dead !
                          conclusion :Glantz was very naive to use the fantast figures on German and Russian losses on his lecture(which is available on the web) and if he had done his homework,he had known that they were impossible .
                          I think problem is in the way it was quoted.
                          Soviet irrevocable losses were around 15 million, in that figure included dead, missing and captured (11,2 million, you gave here), but there were also 3,8 million soldiers that were discharged from the army, after being wounded/sick.
                          Those figures are from Krivosheev's study, and they give number given by Glantz.

                          Regarding german casualties, most recent statistical study by Dr. Overmans claims that total german military dead were around 5,3 million, including those who died in captivity.
                          Also, germans, like soviets, discharged around 3 million people from army.
                          If you add number of PoW, you will in both cases be very close to figures Glantz gave.
                          Last edited by vathra; 11 Jun 10, 05:45.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by vathra View Post
                            I think problem is in the way it was quoted.
                            Soviet irrevocable losses were around 15 million, in that figure included dead, missing and captured (11,2 million, you gave here), but there were also 3,8 million soldiers that were discharged from the army, after being wounded/sick.
                            Those figures are from Krivosheev's study, and they give number given by Glantz.

                            Regarding german casualties, most recent statistical study by Dr. Overmans claims that total german military dead were around 5,3 million, including those who died in captivity.
                            Also, germans, like soviets, discharged around 3 million people from army.
                            If you add number of PoW, you will in both cases be very close to figures Glantz gave.
                            on the german casualties :the figures given by Glantz are impossible and the figures by Overmans :well....let's say that I have no faith in them.
                            one exemple :he include those who died in captivity ,but the figures of the dead in captivity are varying from :363000 to 1093000,thus there are no reliable figures for the dead in captivity .

                            Comment


                            • Krivosheev's information is probably as accurate as it can be, but that is still only a best guess, and no one truly knows how many Soviet citizens died in the Great Patriotic War. The baselline data is highly suspect, as a cursory examination of the Soviet census process will reveal.

                              I'm going from memory, but shortly before the war, Stalin ordered a census (1937?) and was most disappointed in the figures. The had expected greater population growth under Communist prosperity, and promptly challenged the census. The man in charge was arrested and a new census was begun, which promptly came back with data more amenable to Stalin. Similarly, I don't recall another census anytime before the mid-1950s, and that's a long time after the war ended.

                              It seems to me that given the ambiguous data prior to the GPW and the delay in confirming population data after 1945, debating casualty figures is rather futile. My best guess is that somewhere around 26 million Soviet citizens died during that period, most of them violently. I came to that conclusion after years of believing the number was more like 30 million, from reading western and Soviet histories and interviewing Soviet and former Soviet people of all nationalities with ties to that period. That's a big enough number that it is still impossible to comprehend, roughly the population of Canada at the time I was reading. It was a catastrophe for the people there.

                              Regards
                              Scott Fraser
                              Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                              A contentedly cantankerous old fart

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
                                The Soviets broke the back of Germany's land forces long before the Western Allies had to come to grips with them on land on any serious scale. The fact that they may have done this with less 'efficiency', and lost a lot more men doing so, makes no odds from the Western viewpoint. The Wehrmacht was broken in the East, end of story.>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                Great point and 100% true. One of the things that I always find amusing is the boards regading the eastern front- at any site! All the 'generals' point out that Hitler should have done this, Hitler made this mistake here at Kiev, Hitler made this blah blah blah- they make it sound as though defeating the Soviet Union in 1941 was possible- it wasn't. For every mistake that the Germans made- so did the Russians- it all balances out. Having fought for this country I've experienced how fluid battle can be- nothing always goes the way you plan unless EVERYTHING is perfect.

                                I've often been asked when Germany lost WW 2? No Sealion? Failure at Moscow? Stalingrad? Kursk? I always answer the same way- on June 22, 1941 at 3:15 am- the minute the first shots were fired on Russia.
                                That's your opinion, and you do a pretty good job of defending it, but there were too many variables involved to say it's an absolute.

                                The war was 2 years old when Hilter's attack caused the USSR to have to switch sides. That's why I have trouble accepting that 80% idea.
                                They also left the war 4 months before the end, not counting that last minute land-grab in Manchuria.

                                And it would have been easy for Germany to win against the USSR. All they would have had to do was be less of a bunch of damned Nazis, and the defections would have made the Red Army melt away like ice in springtime.

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X