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  • Kazakh Units in Soviet Army

    I was talking with a fellow reenactor about WWII stuff and we were going on about Soviet troops in WWII. He brought up the fact that many female soldiers served in combat units and that reminded me of a story I heard in Kazakhstan about a female sniper Aliya (last name escapes me) who became a Hero of the Soviet Union. Remembering that also brought back some conversations I had with some Kazakhs about Kazakh service during WWII. However, during our conversations, the speaker tended to speak rather broken English and I was slightly drunk. So I tried to find some more information again, but I'm having a hard time finding anything.

    Can anyone point me in the right direction? Unfortunately I cannot read Russian or Kazakh so this might be difficult.
    And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
    Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
    Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
    Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Tankboy View Post
    I was talking with a fellow reenactor about WWII stuff and we were going on about Soviet troops in WWII. He brought up the fact that many female soldiers served in combat units and that reminded me of a story I heard in Kazakhstan about a female sniper Aliya (last name escapes me) who became a Hero of the Soviet Union. Remembering that also brought back some conversations I had with some Kazakhs about Kazakh service during WWII. However, during our conversations, the speaker tended to speak rather broken English and I was slightly drunk. So I tried to find some more information again, but I'm having a hard time finding anything.

    Can anyone point me in the right direction? Unfortunately I cannot read Russian or Kazakh so this might be difficult.
    Aliya Moldagulova was correct name of this sniper.
    http://www.biografia.kz/geroi/moldagulova-aliya.html

    I can't say there were special Kazakh units, but some divisions were formed in Kazakhstan, so naturally could have a large portion of staff from it

    Regards
    Alex

    P.S. Don't drink too much
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Three cavalry divisions formed during the war, the 96th, 105th and 106th, were officially designated as 'Kazakh' units. Unfortunately, all three were also disbanded without, as far as I've been able to determine, ever getting to the Front.
      The 310th, 314th, 316th, and 391st Rifle Divisions were all formed in Kazakhstan, and so may have been known informally as 'Kazakh' units. The 316th, of course, became the 8th Guards Rifle Division as a result of its defensive stand in front of Moscow in 1941. In addition, the 459th and 462nd Rifle Divisions were forming in Kazakhstan early in 1942 when they were redesignated as the 29th and 102nd Rifle Divisions, respectively. They went to the front with those designations, but, again, I don't know if they were ever formally known as 'Kazakh' units.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by amvas View Post
        Aliya Moldagulova was correct name of this sniper.
        http://www.biografia.kz/geroi/moldagulova-aliya.html

        I can't say there were special Kazakh units, but some divisions were formed in Kazakhstan, so naturally could have a large portion of staff from it

        Regards
        Alex

        P.S. Don't drink too much
        Actually, that's what I meant, simply the divisions formed in Kazakhstan. I figured the Soviet Union would be unlikely to form complete ethnic divisions, but I was wondering if there were any divisions formed out of Kazakhstan. Unfortunately, I have a bad American habit of ascribing Kazakh to anyone from Kazakhstan, like how an Italian American is still at the end of the day an American. I forget that ethnic identity plays more of a role and is becoming more important over in Central Asia. So again, I meant to say units formed of people living in the Kazakh SSR, be they Kazakh, Turkministani, Russian, Ukrainian, or what not.



        You know, I don't really think it was my fault. I was a law abiding 20 year old from the U.S., never touched more than a glass of wine, then going to a country where the choice is either between Kymiz or Vodka, I think I'll go with the latter...
        And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
        Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
        Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
        Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sharposhnikov View Post
          Three cavalry divisions formed during the war, the 96th, 105th and 106th, were officially designated as 'Kazakh' units. Unfortunately, all three were also disbanded without, as far as I've been able to determine, ever getting to the Front.
          The 310th, 314th, 316th, and 391st Rifle Divisions were all formed in Kazakhstan, and so may have been known informally as 'Kazakh' units. The 316th, of course, became the 8th Guards Rifle Division as a result of its defensive stand in front of Moscow in 1941. In addition, the 459th and 462nd Rifle Divisions were forming in Kazakhstan early in 1942 when they were redesignated as the 29th and 102nd Rifle Divisions, respectively. They went to the front with those designations, but, again, I don't know if they were ever formally known as 'Kazakh' units.

          Ah thank you. I just googled 8th Guard Rifle Division and got this the wiki. I finally understand what the 28 Guardsmen Square is about. I knew they were heroes in WWII, but I thought it was more a representation of Kazakhstan, not based on an actual event.

          Thank you for all your help, I'll use this as a starting point. I assume there's no real english language scholarly work on these units that you would say was accurate? So far, all I've found is the wiki on the 8th Guards and a few forum references to other divisions and a wiki list of all Soviet Rifle Divisions.

          Edit; I also got a reply back from one of my Kazakh friends I asked for info. Unfortunately, she's not really into military history or what not, so what she knows didn't fall into the category of what I knew. She mentions that Aliya Moldagulova "was sentto North-West front, to 54 -rifle brigade." She also mentions other units, such as "Sivash shooting division(Sivash is the name of the mountain)
          186 shooting division
          troop: land
          1 Polar shooting division "

          Which does not mean anything to me. Do you know what she's referring to? Sivash doesn't bring anything up on google related to mountains in English)
          Last edited by Tankboy; 25 Feb 10, 22:13.
          And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
          Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
          Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
          Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

          Comment


          • #6
            The 316th Rifle Division was formed in Kazakhstan from local conscript.

            It was really division formed from local public. Even Major-General Panfilov who became its commander had been the Local Military Commissar (the Chief of Local Department of the Mobilization Service of the USSR)

            The division became famous in combats in Moscow Battle of 1941 when it fought very well.

            It contained people of many nationalities.

            The most famous Kazakh from the division was Baurzhan Momysh-Uly. Initially he was a battalion commander, later - commander of a regiment.

            Famous Soviet writer Alexander Bek wrote book "Volokolamskoe Shosse" ("Volokolamsk Motor Road" - it was the important motor road to Moscow in the region of town of Volokolamsk).
            http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/bek/index.html

            The book was based on the author's talkings with Momysh-Uly. It was one of the best books about WWII. The book is written as a story told by Momysh-Uly. He described the forming of the division and its first combats in Moscow Battle when the retreating slowly and winning timeuntrained division had to defend large frontline against advancing German troops.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks Andrey, that's a lot of interesting information.
              And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
              Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
              Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
              Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tankboy View Post
                Sivash doesn't bring anything up on google related to mountains in English)
                No wonder as SIVASH is NOT a mountain, but is a large system of shallow lagoons on the west coast of the Sea of Azov.

                263rd and 267th Rifle Divisions received honorable distiction - ammendment of name "SIVASH" to the full division names. It was done in the end of 1943 for successful focing of Sivash. But both divisions were formed in Russia. 263 in Archangelsk regin the 267th in Serpukhov near Moskow.
                I also saw few other divisions having name "Sivash". F.ex. 15th RD and 417th.
                The Kazarh hero of Soviet Union Бабажанов Дадаш Бабажанович served in 417th RD.
                Kind regards
                Igor

                * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Igor. Wonder what she was was talking about then?
                  And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
                  Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
                  Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
                  Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Kazakhs fought around Leningrad as well (310th and 314th divisons, the former formed in Akmolinsk), in Sinyavino-Mga area and on the Nevsky bridgehead.

                    "The Cranes" memorial to Kazakh soldiers near Sinyavinskoe lake

                    www.histours.ru

                    Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      one remark

                      There is country of Kazakhstan. In the time of the USSR it was one of its 15 republics. Now it is a separate state.

                      There is nation of Kazakhs.

                      For us, Russians, "Kazakhs units" means units of ethnic Kazakhs. If it is necessary to speak about units of Kazakhstan or about units formed in the territory of Kazakhstan in WWII we speak "Kazakhstan units" or "units from Kazakhstan" or "units formed in Kazakhstan".

                      We use "Kazakhstan" instead of "Kazakhs".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                        one remark

                        There is country of Kazakhstan. In the time of the USSR it was one of its 15 republics. Now it is a separate state.

                        There is nation of Kazakhs.

                        For us, Russians, "Kazakhs units" means units of ethnic Kazakhs. If it is necessary to speak about units of Kazakhstan or about units formed in the territory of Kazakhstan in WWII we speak "Kazakhstan units" or "units from Kazakhstan" or "units formed in Kazakhstan".

                        We use "Kazakhstan" instead of "Kazakhs".
                        Yeah, I mentioned that above, it's a habit formed from being in the U.S., where we also have ethnic diversity, but that takes a backseat to being an American.

                        Anyway, thanks for all your help guys, if I ever get my Russian reading ability to a level of comprehension, I'll definitely have to give this a harder look.
                        And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
                        Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
                        Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
                        Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tankboy View Post
                          Yeah, I mentioned that above, it's a habit formed from being in the U.S., where we also have ethnic diversity, but that takes a backseat to being an American.
                          It should take a back seat you mean.
                          Кто там?
                          Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                          Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would say that most people I know may say "Oh, I'm Irish American" but ultimately identify with the American identity first. Though that really isn't a discussion for this thread.
                            And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
                            Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
                            Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
                            Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

                            Comment

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