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  • Emtos
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    "noble crusaders"?!?
    Wow, if that's what you think I'm selling, we have a major mis-communication here.
    And that Norway thing was a reaction to the instant claim that it must be Right Wingers before there was any proof of that at all.... as was the case last January in Arizona. That shooter, in fact, was alter revealed to be Lefty.
    And.... I guess you missed it when I used to lecture Heidi and others about Russian treatment of German civilians in 1944-45. I still think that the Germans got off lightly.
    Yeah, I guess that just makes me bloodthirsty now, eh?

    My basic problem with the Reds and the Nazis boils down to the same thing; normal people morphed into something else by very, very VERY bad ideas.
    Period.

    Fascism is dead and gone, totally dis-credited and never to rise again except in the fantasy-delusions of a tiny handful of fringe kooks.
    Communism on the other hand, still has millions of advocates (have you seen how Divorced from reality Richtofen's posts can get on this subject?)
    So, I don't treat communism with the same bemused detachment I do with other ghosts from history. Like the Bubonic Plague, it still has the potential to devastate the world.

    Here endeth the lecture...
    Read my answer in Cold War section.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    You should stop smoking pot right now, it's getting out of hand
    I wish.
    The Biblical term would be "Pearls before swine" in my case. Pot and any other fun drug I ever tried never did anything but give me a headache, no fun at all.

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    I've had my own observations of people who were interested in the Third Reich stuff (from reenactors to history buffs) and much more often than not you could find a swastika if your scratched the surface. I believe your words, it's just the past experience which made me doubt your political persuasions.
    A very limited means of communication, isn't this?

    I do remember very clearly, from last Fall I think.... someone here that gives tours in St. Pete was talking about the mobs of tourists there on some big Parade day. A small group of Italians speaking English asked for something, and I thought it was you that just shrugged them off.
    If I am wrong, I apologize. However, the incident confirmed in my mind that going to Russia to have a good time wasn't a great idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    Batween 185 - 190 millions.

    Yes you can find many such people. But you have Internet, books, other forum users. But you still ask : Why you portray Germans like bad killers ?
    Because they were. It's a fact. US Civil War or Stalin propaganda had nothing to do with that. I don't see any reason why they must be presented like noble crusaders. I remember that in thread about attack in Norway, you had problems with some other users because they had said that it was done by the right wing. So I believe that you problem is not the portrayal of Germans but rather the portrayal of Reds as good people.
    "noble crusaders"?!?
    Wow, if that's what you think I'm selling, we have a major mis-communication here.
    And that Norway thing was a reaction to the instant claim that it must be Right Wingers before there was any proof of that at all.... as was the case last January in Arizona. That shooter, in fact, was alter revealed to be Lefty.
    And.... I guess you missed it when I used to lecture Heidi and others about Russian treatment of German civilians in 1944-45. I still think that the Germans got off lightly.
    Yeah, I guess that just makes me bloodthirsty now, eh?

    My basic problem with the Reds and the Nazis boils down to the same thing; normal people morphed into something else by very, very VERY bad ideas.
    Period.

    Fascism is dead and gone, totally dis-credited and never to rise again except in the fantasy-delusions of a tiny handful of fringe kooks.
    Communism on the other hand, still has millions of advocates (have you seen how Divorced from reality Richtofen's posts can get on this subject?)
    So, I don't treat communism with the same bemused detachment I do with other ghosts from history. Like the Bubonic Plague, it still has the potential to devastate the world.

    Here endeth the lecture...

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    Now, if I read that right, you are saying that none of Stalin's wartime Propaganda can be refuted by the facts.
    Is that your final answer?
    Eh? Let me break this down for you. You wrote that I repeated Stalin's propaganda. I invited you to point me out to this propaganda and bring up factual refutations of this propaganda from independent sources (US or British historians like Glantz, Armstrong and Overy would be just fine).

    You know, to hear you tell it, there is not a single communist sympathizer anywhere in the Europe, and that none of the people who come on your tours are sympathetic to Russia in any way.
    I know that ain't so.
    Some small percentage of people is sympathetic, of course. However, it doesn't change the overall picture one bit. How big is the membership in the US Communist party?

    And maybe you would have better luck finding people with a more balanced view if you didn't blow people off who are looking for help, like that Italian Family you shrugged at last year.
    WHAT???

    Yeah, you mentioned that, and sounded pretty smug about it.


    Wait, now it looks like I'm remembering something. I think it was Stryker who spoke to the Italians. I don't speak Italian and don't remember consulting any Italians last year.

    I have this mental image of you, wandering some Gov't land-fill looking for cigarettes , cursing outsiders and wearing your sunglasses on a cloudy day because the rest of us 'just don't ing get it, man'.
    You should stop smoking pot right now, it's getting out of hand

    You find what you are looking for.
    And the ethnic side of it is something I don't see much of, probably because I am always focused on the political side of it.
    Not an excuse, I just blow off the racial side of things a lot. Bloodlines mean very little to me since I think that any child raised in a certain society will mirror that society... I.Q. and spirit having very little to do with DNA.
    This is why so many Russians had to change their names in order not to be castigated by the Free American Society and why kids were abused (still up to the 90s) at schools for being Russian.

    Stop using the same language and stick to the facts, and I will do the same. I might even start supplying some of the references that you constantly demand and never give in return.
    Like what?

    Playing dumb?
    Why? Because I admit that I was not in WW2, and therefore have no personal stake in it?
    You don't need to have a personal stake to evaluate the moral aspects of it, as well as the value and significance of this war for the parties involved and how this was passed on to the future generations. I didn't mention the Holocaust as a rhetorical figure of speech - in terms of shaping the people's mentality, and historical memory, the war had a similar effect.

    You called me a Nazi Fanboy because I played the German side in a couple of wargames. I assume you are forgetting that I invited you to take part in a Wargame that I am still running ... perhaps playing Russia didn't sit right with you since it was still Czarist Russia in 1914.

    The Wehmacht interests me on purely technical grounds.
    You are not the first to make that mistake, someone once tried to recruit me into some gang, I forget if it was the nazis or the KKK... my answer was "If I wanted to get involved in a dead religion, I'll join up with the Druids".
    That was the last time I was in a really good fist-fight... oh well.
    I've had my own observations of people who were interested in the Third Reich stuff (from reenactors to history buffs) and much more often than not you could find a swastika if your scratched the surface. I believe your words, it's just the past experience which made me doubt your political persuasions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Emtos
    replied
    I could find people where you live that have ignorant things to say about US history too, does that mean that everyone in your country has a distorted view of America and that all opinions from there need to be dismissed out of hand?

    BTW- what was the population of the USSR in 1940?
    Batween 185 - 190 millions.

    Yes you can find many such people. But you have Internet, books, other forum users. But you still ask : Why you portray Germans like bad killers ?
    Because they were. It's a fact. US Civil War or Stalin propaganda had nothing to do with that. I don't see any reason why they must be presented like noble crusaders. I remember that in thread about attack in Norway, you had problems with some other users because they had said that it was done by the right wing. So I believe that you problem is not the portrayal of Germans but rather the portrayal of Reds as good people.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Please show me exactly what statements of facts have I ever brought up which are Stalin's propaganda that can be (were) refuted by any solid independent research in either Russia or the West. Otherwise I call your statements BS.
    Now, if I read that right, you are saying that none of Stalin's wartime Propaganda can be refuted by the facts.
    Is that your final answer?

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    I know very well what is going to be sold well outside the country. I have spoken to countless people from the "outside" and I've met Russians who lived abroad and saw what was told about Russia in the West. In Germany and Denmark (citing some recent examples) they show exclusively negative programs, and the Russian history from 1917 to 1991 is shown as one big Gulag horror without the slightest bright spot. Today's situation is shown just one tiny notch better. When the tourists come, they ask how it was like to live in Gulag until 1991 and whether the Americans saved the Russian Jews (all other ethnic groups of the SU were in some parallel reality in 1941-1945) from the Nazis.
    You know, to hear you tell it, there is not a single communist sympathizer anywhere in the Europe, and that none of the people who come on your tours are sympathetic to Russia in any way.
    I know that ain't so.
    And maybe you would have better luck finding people with a more balanced view if you didn't blow people off who are looking for help, like that Italian Family you shrugged at last year.
    Yeah, you mentioned that, and sounded pretty smug about it.

    I have this mental image of you, wandering some Gov't land-fill looking for cigarettes , cursing outsiders and wearing your sunglasses on a cloudy day because the rest of us 'just don't ing get it, man'.


    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    So this is what is going to sell well. The Russians who know what the war was like have a completely different picture of the events and they are not going to distort them to please the people who have been pumped with anti-Russian propaganda to the maximum for a century. Yes, I'm saying anti-Russian and not anti-Communist propaganda because of its abundant use of ethnic stereotypes.
    You find what you are looking for.
    And the ethnic side of it is something I don't see much of, probably because I am always focused on the political side of it.
    Not an excuse, I just blow off the racial side of things a lot. Bloodlines mean very little to me since I think that any child raised in a certain society will mirror that society... I.Q. and spirit having very little to do with DNA.

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Oh, I love a smug bigot enjoying his and his society's bigotry, using worls like "wailing". Martin Luther King wailed, and lots of Jews in the end of the 19th century wailed the same way until their kin ceased to be considered sub-human by the bigoted masses.
    Stop using the same language and stick to the facts, and I will do the same. I might even start supplying some of the references that you constantly demand and never give in return.

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Ah, playing dumb again. Carry on with your dismissive attitude. But one thing I'm sure of, you won't dare to say the same "no biggie, we had our civil war, so let's forget about it and move on" about the Jews and their Holocaust which is perfectly comparable to what the Russian people went through in WW2.
    Bolded- exactly what I say about the ACW, and the few lone freaks that don't think so in this country, I dismiss as whackos. 70 years have passed since the war you are talking about, which came only 80 years after the ACW.

    Playing dumb?
    Why? Because I admit that I was not in WW2, and therefore have no personal stake in it?

    You called me a Nazi Fanboy because I played the German side in a couple of wargames. I assume you are forgetting that I invited you to take part in a Wargame that I am still running ... perhaps playing Russia didn't sit right with you since it was still Czarist Russia in 1914.

    The Wehmacht interests me on purely technical grounds.
    You are not the first to make that mistake, someone once tried to recruit me into some gang, I forget if it was the nazis or the KKK... my answer was "If I wanted to get involved in a dead religion, I'll join up with the Druids".
    That was the last time I was in a really good fist-fight... oh well.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    Reminds me :

    Soviet journalist Boris Strelnikov who worked in USA told this :
    -You know Miss Green that we lost 20 millions of people during the war ?
    -It's impossible ! In USA the life was difficult too. Gas was rationed and it was hard to buy chicken.
    I could find people where you live that have ignorant things to say about US history too, does that mean that everyone in your country has a distorted view of America and that all opinions from there need to be dismissed out of hand?

    BTW- what was the population of the USSR in 1940?

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Karri View Post
    ...no review there...
    Here, I've salvaged the link. I agree with pretty much everything there.

    http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...id=108&lang=en

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    I say more balanced, and you say that anything that deviates from Stalin's war-time propaganda line is "nazi-fanboy" or outright pro-Nazi.
    Please show me exactly what statements of facts have I ever brought up which are Stalin's propaganda that can be (were) refuted by any solid independent research in either Russia or the West. Otherwise I call your statements BS.

    Do what you want, I'm just trying to tell you what would make a movie go over better outside your coutry.
    I know very well what is going to be sold well outside the country. I have spoken to countless people from the "outside" and I've met Russians who lived abroad and saw what was told about Russia in the West. In Germany and Denmark (citing some recent examples) they show exclusively negative programs, and the Russian history from 1917 to 1991 is shown as one big Gulag horror without the slightest bright spot. Today's situation is shown just one tiny notch better. When the tourists come, they ask how it was like to live in Gulag until 1991 and whether the Americans saved the Russian Jews (all other ethnic groups of the SU were in some parallel reality in 1941-1945) from the Nazis.

    So this is what is going to sell well. The Russians who know what the war was like have a completely different picture of the events and they are not going to distort them to please the people who have been pumped with anti-Russian propaganda to the maximum for a century. Yes, I'm saying anti-Russian and not anti-Communist propaganda because of its abundant use of ethnic stereotypes.

    On the one hand you wail about how unknown the Russian end of the war is outside your country... and at the same time you want us to accept endless re-hashes of the same old tripe.
    Oh, I love a smug bigot enjoying his and his society's bigotry, using worls like "wailing". Martin Luther King wailed, and lots of Jews in the end of the 19th century wailed the same way until their kin ceased to be considered sub-human by the bigoted masses.

    We had movies like that too, made during the war.
    The war ended, we moved on.
    When will you guys move on and stop using that war for political purposes in the present?
    Please tell me, have you seen a single such movie? And have you seen any of recent movies? Or are you following the glorious Soviet tradition: "I haven't read Pasternak, but I condemn him"?


    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    If they behaved exactly like it was in the "stereotypes", and it was documented, what's your problem?

    See above.
    Weaseling away? So I see you have a problem with the depiction of real historical facts in the favour of a more lenient approach to your beloved Wehrmacht

    What the hell are you talking about now?
    You know this perfectly well, but you can play dumb all you want.

    "Orcs" is a straw-man, you invented it to make your opponents look bad, and I have never heard that term used by anyone in the west.

    You honestly have a problem with the cast?
    Do you have any idea who Bob Hoskins is?
    Or Jude Law?
    Ralph Fines?
    Rachel Weiss?
    I don't care, really. The ones who don't look like monsters play roles carefully crafted to fit into the most bizarre Western stereotypes about Russia and the Eastern front. Ah, sorry, this is what you call an "accurate depiction" and what would sell well in the West.

    Nope, I sure don't.
    I wasn't there.
    How about you, eh?
    Ah, playing dumb again. Carry on with your dismissive attitude. But one thing I'm sure of, you won't dare to say the same "no biggie, we had our civil war, so let's forget about it and move on" about the Jews and their Holocaust which is perfectly comparable to what the Russian people went through in WW2.
    Last edited by ShAA; 15 Aug 11, 12:50.

    Leave a comment:


  • Karri
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    ...no review there...

    Leave a comment:


  • Emtos
    replied
    I say more balanced, and you say that anything that deviates from Stalin's war-time propaganda line is "nazi-fanboy" or outright pro-Nazi.
    Do what you want, I'm just trying to tell you what would make a movie go over better outside your coutry. On the one hand you wail about how unknown the Russian end of the war is outside your country... and at the same time you want us to accept endless re-hashes of the same old tripe.
    We had movies like that too, made during the war.
    The war ended, we moved on.
    When will you guys move on and stop using that war for political purposes in the present?

    What do you mean by Stalin's war time propaganda ?


    "Orcs" is a straw-man, you invented it to make your opponents look bad, and I have never heard that term used by anyone in the west.

    You honestly have a problem with the cast?
    Do you have any idea who Bob Hoskins is?
    Or Jude Law?
    Ralph Fines?
    Rachel Weiss?
    Oh, Ron Pearlman must have caught your eye. He's a rough & ready type, and also one of my favorite actors going back a long way.

    If those people are not good enough for you, I don't know who possibly could be.
    A good review about the movie :

    http://www.battlefield.ru/en/hall-of...the-gates.html

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    So are you suggesting to rewrite history to make it more "cativating"? If these actions happened, why the heck must we deliberately ignore them only to please a small bunch of American Wehrmacht fanboys who want to see their heroes in a more sophisticated and nuanced light? If you suggest the pro-German doctored version would sell better in the States - well, maybe we're not Capitalist enough and prefer to stick to historical accuracy.
    I say more balanced, and you say that anything that deviates from Stalin's war-time propaganda line is "nazi-fanboy" or outright pro-Nazi.
    Do what you want, I'm just trying to tell you what would make a movie go over better outside your coutry. On the one hand you wail about how unknown the Russian end of the war is outside your country... and at the same time you want us to accept endless re-hashes of the same old tripe.
    We had movies like that too, made during the war.
    The war ended, we moved on.
    When will you guys move on and stop using that war for political purposes in the present?

    [QUOTE=ShAA;1989765]If they behaved exactly like it was in the "stereotypes", and it was documented, what's your problem?

    See above.

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    As for the lover, if you see someone bashing Russia on every single occasion and seeing every historical WW2 event and alternative from a purely Third Reich perspective, you can easily apply the walking and quacking duck rule. You might claim greater sophistication, but I don't really care if it's a mandarin duck and not a usual one.
    What the hell are you talking about now?

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Of course, they will never die with those who want the Russians to be what they would like them to be and to do what they are told to do.
    We are still talking about movies... right?

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Orcs is the only accurate word to describe the way they were portrayed in Enema at the Gates. You've already been presented the evidence in the form of screenshots. The Hollywood seemed to have stripped all circuses of freaks to fill its Red Army personnel cast.
    "Orcs" is a straw-man, you invented it to make your opponents look bad, and I have never heard that term used by anyone in the west.

    You honestly have a problem with the cast?
    Do you have any idea who Bob Hoskins is?
    Or Jude Law?
    Ralph Fines?
    Rachel Weiss?
    Oh, Ron Pearlman must have caught your eye. He's a rough & ready type, and also one of my favorite actors going back a long way.

    If those people are not good enough for you, I don't know who possibly could be.

    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    I'm not claiming "superior trauma", it's just you who can't possibly understand what the German invasion was for the Russians.
    Nope, I sure don't.
    I wasn't there.
    How about you, eh?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Hope you can also explain the Holocaust by the Red Army forcing the Jews into its ranks and using as cannon fodder. All death camp documents were forged by the Soviets and no Soviet documents are accessible because of Evil Putin, of course. A quote from "a German General" would be proof enough. Finally there'll be an elegant and logical explanation for the likes of Exorcist, absolving his heroic anti-Communist German war professionals of the undeserved slander and exposing the real villains.
    Whoa ... I say I'm leaving this board to you, so you take advantage of that and slander me when my back is turned, days later?
    That's low, even for a thick-headed ideologue with thin skin. I guess I'll just have to keep a close-eye on this place from now on.

    And no, I'm not going to go into any in-depth condemnation of the Nazis just to be politically correct or dance to your little tune here.

    Provocation accepted, let the duels begin.

    Leave a comment:


  • Erkki
    replied
    It isnīt that I have a problem with, but more the so called "removal" of the population

    Leave a comment:


  • Egorka
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Absolute BS. They wore military insignia, were organised practically the same way as regular army units and were considered combatants by all sides in the conflict. Moreover, the People's Militia units fought as such only at the Luga Belt and at the approaches to Leningrad. In other regions they either were not fomed because of the German occupation of these territories or started the combat. On top of this, in the end of September 1941 all People's Militia divisions were reformed into regular divisions. I wonder where you only got this date, as well as the 5 million number. If volunteer formations, made up of men who weren't immediately drafted, were that numerous, then what was the size of the conscripted army then? 15-20 million?
    Well, he is partly correct in that the volunteer (opolchenie) losses are difficult to assess. The volunteer units losses were not at all recorded in the usual manner before these units were transfomed into regular military formations. That is according to Krivosheev.
    The volunteers accounted for app. 4 million, 2 of which were later transfomed to regular divisions.

    But even with this info Domenic's point doen't stand, because the volunteer (opolchenie) losses are included into the losses of the civilian population as well as into the USSR's total WW2 losses derived with the "demographic" calculation method, i.e. app. 27 Million people.

    Leave a comment:

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