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  • Scott Fraser
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    I wonder, what some Polish guys are smoking???
    I know, Alex. It is puzzling. I see many comments like this from Poles, and I don't understand why they would rather be occupied by Nazis.

    Cheers
    Scott

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    Yep. I also said such cases could be. But mostly they were not for attack, but defense situations.
    Well, the troops on the bridgehead were ordered to attack German positions every day. In average from October to December 1941 there were up to 15 attacks a day.

    This is a bit another situation. The reinforcement was not send to attack without arms, but they were sent to the unit! So, the command expected presence of some ammo and arms left from the staff of that unit who had been killed or wounded before. Also they could have some amount of captured arms.
    Pity I can't find the article right now as I read it in a magazine. It mentioned the fate of a NKVD battallion made up of cadets which was sent to the bridgehead in September 1941 with the words "We've already breaking through to Mga, your job will only be to pick up your rifles on the field and finish off a few Germans hiding in the bushes". Basically the commaders MIGHT expect them to find enough ammunition but they could not be sure of it at all. Nevertheless, they sent the boys unarmed. Well, there was a huge shortage of rifles at that time anyway.

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  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Such things happened even later and on other sectors of the front. In autumn 1941, according to the memories of many Nevsky Bridgehead veterans, groups of reinforcements were sent to cross the river without weapons. This is just one of such memories:

    http://www.peoples.ru/military/navy_...ander_kopanev/
    Yep. I also said such cases could be. But mostly they were not for attack, but defense situations.

    In his case he got his rifle, but during especially intense battles the reinforcements frequently lacked weapons and ammunition.
    This is a bit another situation. The reinforcement was not send to attack without arms, but they were sent to the unit! So, the command expected presence of some ammo and arms left from the staff of that unit who had been killed or wounded before. Also they could have some amount of captured arms.

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  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by DracoBorealis View Post
    This was based on Stalin's 227th order authorising shooting of hmm... "traitors" soldiers or commanders who reteated without the order from above.
    No, you are not right. shooting was applied besides that order. Even in 1941 panic-making persons were easily shot without any procedures.
    But shooting in mass was never been applied... At least in mass scales.
    Commanders, which permitted their troops to retreat could be shot after that order. And that was not too rare case. But I'm against mixing up shooting of some given person for this or that fault and shooting in mass. As I have said the scales of the latter is much overestimated...

    You coud be declared the "Traitor to Motherland" for being captured by Germans too.
    Yes, this is true. But Order No. 227 has no relation to this. This was applied again since the year 1941...

    But in Putinist Russia Joe Stalin will be soon canonised.
    I wonder, what some Polish guys are smoking???

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    for example such a case took part in June 1941 with the personnel of the 17th Mechanised Corps in Byelorussia. It has only 1/3 of small arms for infantry and almost no tanks, because it only started formation on the time Germans attacked its units. But even in that case unarmed part of it was gathered in forests beyond the armed troops.
    Such things happened even later and on other sectors of the front. In autumn 1941, according to the memories of many Nevsky Bridgehead veterans, groups of reinforcements were sent to cross the river without weapons. This is just one of such memories:

    http://www.peoples.ru/military/navy_...ander_kopanev/

    Г.К. В какое подразделение на пятачке Вы попали?

    -К.А.Н.- Когда нашу группу из 18 человек привели в штаб НОГ, нас принял молодой капитан береговой службы, представившийся ПНШ 4-й БрМП.

    Лично побеседовал с каждым новичком. Нас покормили.

    С наступлением темноты, этот капитан с своим ординарцем повел нас к переправе. Нам объяснили, что на берегу и во время переправы запрещено курить, громко говорить, зажигать огонь и так далее.

    Быстро и тихо на четырех лодках мы пересекли Неву.

    Переправлялись без оружия, сказали, что винтовки получим уже в своих ротах.
    G.K.: Which detachment on the "pyatachok" did you get into?

    K.A.N.: When our 18-men group was brought to the NOG (Neva Operative Group) HQ, we were greeted by a young coastal service captain who introduced himself as the 4th Naval Infantry Brigade head of stagg assistant.

    He had a personal conversation with each newbie. We were fed after this.

    With the coming of the dark this captain and his orderly led us to the river crossing. He explained us that it was forbidden to smoke, speak loudly, smoke, light fire and so on.

    We crossed the Neva fast, rowing on four boats. While crossing the river we had no weapons, we were told we would get them on the bridgehead.
    In his case he got his rifle, but during especially intense battles the reinforcements frequently lacked weapons and ammunition.

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  • Egorka
    replied
    Originally posted by DracoBorealis View Post
    This was based on Stalin's 227th order authorising shooting of hmm... "traitors" soldiers or commanders who reteated without the order from above.
    You coud be declared the "Traitor to Motherland" for being captured by Germans too. But in Putinist Russia Joe Stalin will be soon canonised.
    http://www.mishalov.com/Stalin_28July42.html
    "From 1 August till 15 October 1942, the guard squads held 140.755 soldiers that run from the front line.
    Out of this number, 3.980 were arrested,
    executed - 1.189,
    sent to the penal batallions - 2.776,
    sent to penal squads - 185,
    sent to their units or assembly places - 131.094.
    "

    Example:
    "NKVD report, 17-Feb-1943.
    On the 2nd of October 1942, during the attack of our forces, certain units of 138 rifle division, receiving heavy artilery and mortar enemy fire, wavered and run back through the defence lines of 1st batallion 706 SP, 204 SD, on the second defence line. The taken measures resumed the situation. 7 covards and paniceurs were shot in front of other solfiers, others returned to the front line."

    0n the 16th of October 1942, during the enemies counter attack, a group of soldiers from 781 and 124 rifle division, accounting for 30 men, showes covardness and run in panic alluring other soldiers. The guard squad of the 21st army, present in the area, with use of weapons dissolved panic and restored present situation.

    19 november 1942. During the attack of the 293 rifle division, in the time of german counter attack, 2 mortar squads together with the squad leaders, leitenant Bagatirev and Egorov, without order othe higher comand left the positionand run in panic leaving the weapons behind. The present squad of gurad machinegunners stopped them ,and executing the 2 paniceurs in front of the linereturned others to the previous positions, afther which the attack sucessufly resumed."

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  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by DracoBorealis View Post
    This was based on Stalin's 227th order authorising shooting of hmm... "traitors" soldiers or commanders who reteated without the order from above.
    You coud be declared the "Traitor to Motherland" for being captured by Germans too. But in Putinist Russia Joe Stalin will be soon canonised.
    http://www.mishalov.com/Stalin_28July42.html
    Please try to investigate the subject before making such joke of a post here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Draco Borealis
    replied
    This was based on Stalin's 227th order authorising shooting of hmm... "traitors" soldiers or commanders who reteated without the order from above.
    You coud be declared the "Traitor to Motherland" for being captured by Germans too. But in Putinist Russia Joe Stalin will be soon canonised.
    http://www.mishalov.com/Stalin_28July42.html

    Leave a comment:


  • LtCol
    replied
    According to the book "Enemy at the Gates" this did take place. How often and what the conditions were I have no idea.
    But remember the book was written during the cold war and the scenes may have more to do with the imagine of Stalin than reality

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  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by jeffthewookiee View Post
    Can anyone tell me how historically accurate the film Enemy at the Gates is with regards to the scenes showing untrained conscript soldiers being handed 1 rifle per 2 men? Did this really occur in the Battle of Stalingrad, or anywhere on the East Front? It's hard to imagine them pushing people straight off the train into an assault on prepared German positions, and then machine gunning any who tried to retreat...
    As it usually happens truth and false meets together.
    Read this article showing Russian view on bugs in that movie
    http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...id=206&lang=en
    The author of the article of course was not aware of some details (for example whistles really were used by Soviet infantry commanders)

    Replying to your question I can say that situation with unarmed people were forced to attack hardly were realistic. I know cases when unarmed soldiers were forced to defense, when operative situation became too sharp.
    for example such a case took part in June 1941 with the personnel of the 17th Mechanised Corps in Byelorussia. It has only 1/3 of small arms for infantry and almost no tanks, because it only started formation on the time Germans attacked its units. But even in that case unarmed part of it was gathered in forests beyond the armed troops.

    Another myth is "Zagradotryads", who "machine-guns retreating soldiers".
    the main purpose of those kind of detachments was not to shoot at retreating soldiers in mass, but to choose panic-making persons and to shoot, or arrest them. The rest of retreating mass of soldiers were gathering and organizing into temporary units (companies, or even battalions) and returned to the frontline.

    I myself do not know cases when machine-guns behind them forced our soldiers to attack

    regards
    Alex

    Leave a comment:


  • jeffthewookiee
    started a topic Enemy At the Gates/Kommissar scene

    Enemy At the Gates/Kommissar scene

    Can anyone tell me how historically accurate the film Enemy at the Gates is with regards to the scenes showing untrained conscript soldiers being handed 1 rifle per 2 men? Did this really occur in the Battle of Stalingrad, or anywhere on the East Front? It's hard to imagine them pushing people straight off the train into an assault on prepared German positions, and then machine gunning any who tried to retreat...
    Last edited by jeffthewookiee; 09 Feb 10, 23:38.

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