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  • #76
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post


    90 % of events of the film were shown as they were lived by those people.

    Dare explain us the fact that around 15 millions of Soviet civilians were killed during the war.
    I can explain it. Civilians were taken into the army by the millions. Soviet documents did not keep records of their deaths. From 1943 on, the Red Army litterally emptied towns of their people and impressed them into front-line units. According to Soviet accounts, their NCOs were supposed to track these "newcomers" but claimed that most were killed before they ever got to know their names. Indeed, their use was so prevalent that the German army attempted to remove the populations of areas that they left, adding them to their retreat. As a German general said, "They were only old men and boys, but there were SO MANY OF THEM".

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Domenic View Post
      I can explain it. Civilians were taken into the army by the millions. Soviet documents did not keep records of their deaths. From 1943 on, the Red Army litterally emptied towns of their people and impressed them into front-line units. According to Soviet accounts, their NCOs were supposed to track these "newcomers" but claimed that most were killed before they ever got to know their names. Indeed, their use was so prevalent that the German army attempted to remove the populations of areas that they left, adding them to their retreat. As a German general said, "They were only old men and boys, but there were SO MANY OF THEM".
      Hope you can also explain the Holocaust by the Red Army forcing the Jews into its ranks and using as cannon fodder. All death camp documents were forged by the Soviets and no Soviet documents are accessible because of Evil Putin, of course. A quote from "a German General" would be proof enough. Finally there'll be an elegant and logical explanation for the likes of Exorcist, absolving his heroic anti-Communist German war professionals of the undeserved slander and exposing the real villains.
      www.histours.ru

      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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      • #78
        their use was so prevalent that the German army attempted to remove the populations of areas that they left
        Ah yes... Sometimes the Germans was even quite successful


        “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

        Max Sterner

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Erkki View Post
          Ah yes... Sometimes the Germans was even quite successful
          Cute...but hardly proof of anything.

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          • #80
            Cute...but hardly proof of anything.
            What about the proofs for your claims ?
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Domenic View Post
              Cute...but hardly proof of anything.
              You are a very interesting individual considering such matters cute.

              Anyway what is that you want proof of? And do you really care about is as your "proof" goes as far as some anonymous German general.
              “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

              Max Sterner

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              • #82
                Just got hold of and watched Brest Fortress. An excellent movie, thanks for the suggestion. Had never really thought in detail how the 15 million deaths accumulated, but it must have been something exactly like that, a complete disregard (or worse) for civilian life.

                Any more recent Russian movies?

                How would you guys rate 9th Company? I got the impression that at least the final battle scene is unrealistic, plenty of lead flying but the baddies just keep walking at your position unharmed.

                [Off topic: Conceivably some Poles might have preferred a thid option, being liberated from the deadly Nazi rule by the Soviets, but then after war not having to learn Russian at school, with or without Levi's. IIUC, Stalin made some comment to Roosevelt to that effect in the Tehran talks. Maybe that's where the attitude comes from. But yes, blinkers-wearing nationalists are always tiring. And this is indeed off-topic.]

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                • #83
                  Hmm Well "Ostrov" is a good movie, if you like Maffia movies like I do Brat, Brat 2 and Zhmurki, Sistra are pretty good to.

                  Hmm Rota 9 is thrashed pretty bad I hear most saying it is garbage. I only watched a part of it as it was Polish dubbed, no offense to the Poles but I can´t stand dubbing!
                  “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                  Max Sterner

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                    What about the proofs for your claims ?
                    The "proof" is in hundreds of books. 5 million militia by 12/30/41 alone.
                    None of these poor souls are registered as "army" deaths.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Domenic View Post
                      The "proof" is in hundreds of books. 5 million militia by 12/30/41 alone.
                      None of these poor souls are registered as "army" deaths.
                      Absolute BS. They wore military insignia, were organised practically the same way as regular army units and were considered combatants by all sides in the conflict. Moreover, the People's Militia units fought as such only at the Luga Belt and at the approaches to Leningrad. In other regions they either were not fomed because of the German occupation of these territories or started the combat. On top of this, in the end of September 1941 all People's Militia divisions were reformed into regular divisions. I wonder where you only got this date, as well as the 5 million number. If volunteer formations, made up of men who weren't immediately drafted, were that numerous, then what was the size of the conscripted army then? 15-20 million?
                      www.histours.ru

                      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Domenic View Post
                        The "proof" is in hundreds of books. 5 million militia by 12/30/41 alone.
                        None of these poor souls are registered as "army" deaths.
                        Then you have plenty to chose from, get busy
                        “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                        Max Sterner

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                          Absolute BS. They wore military insignia, were organised practically the same way as regular army units and were considered combatants by all sides in the conflict. Moreover, the People's Militia units fought as such only at the Luga Belt and at the approaches to Leningrad. In other regions they either were not fomed because of the German occupation of these territories or started the combat. On top of this, in the end of September 1941 all People's Militia divisions were reformed into regular divisions. I wonder where you only got this date, as well as the 5 million number. If volunteer formations, made up of men who weren't immediately drafted, were that numerous, then what was the size of the conscripted army then? 15-20 million?
                          Well, he is partly correct in that the volunteer (opolchenie) losses are difficult to assess. The volunteer units losses were not at all recorded in the usual manner before these units were transfomed into regular military formations. That is according to Krivosheev.
                          The volunteers accounted for app. 4 million, 2 of which were later transfomed to regular divisions.

                          But even with this info Domenic's point doen't stand, because the volunteer (opolchenie) losses are included into the losses of the civilian population as well as into the USSR's total WW2 losses derived with the "demographic" calculation method, i.e. app. 27 Million people.
                          Kind regards
                          Igor

                          * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                          * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                          * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

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                          • #88
                            It isn´t that I have a problem with, but more the so called "removal" of the population
                            “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                            Max Sterner

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                              Hope you can also explain the Holocaust by the Red Army forcing the Jews into its ranks and using as cannon fodder. All death camp documents were forged by the Soviets and no Soviet documents are accessible because of Evil Putin, of course. A quote from "a German General" would be proof enough. Finally there'll be an elegant and logical explanation for the likes of Exorcist, absolving his heroic anti-Communist German war professionals of the undeserved slander and exposing the real villains.
                              Whoa ... I say I'm leaving this board to you, so you take advantage of that and slander me when my back is turned, days later?
                              That's low, even for a thick-headed ideologue with thin skin. I guess I'll just have to keep a close-eye on this place from now on.

                              And no, I'm not going to go into any in-depth condemnation of the Nazis just to be politically correct or dance to your little tune here.

                              Provocation accepted, let the duels begin.
                              "Why is the Rum gone?"

                              -Captain Jack

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                                So are you suggesting to rewrite history to make it more "cativating"? If these actions happened, why the heck must we deliberately ignore them only to please a small bunch of American Wehrmacht fanboys who want to see their heroes in a more sophisticated and nuanced light? If you suggest the pro-German doctored version would sell better in the States - well, maybe we're not Capitalist enough and prefer to stick to historical accuracy.
                                I say more balanced, and you say that anything that deviates from Stalin's war-time propaganda line is "nazi-fanboy" or outright pro-Nazi.
                                Do what you want, I'm just trying to tell you what would make a movie go over better outside your coutry. On the one hand you wail about how unknown the Russian end of the war is outside your country... and at the same time you want us to accept endless re-hashes of the same old tripe.
                                We had movies like that too, made during the war.
                                The war ended, we moved on.
                                When will you guys move on and stop using that war for political purposes in the present?

                                [QUOTE=ShAA;1989765]If they behaved exactly like it was in the "stereotypes", and it was documented, what's your problem?

                                See above.

                                Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                                As for the lover, if you see someone bashing Russia on every single occasion and seeing every historical WW2 event and alternative from a purely Third Reich perspective, you can easily apply the walking and quacking duck rule. You might claim greater sophistication, but I don't really care if it's a mandarin duck and not a usual one.
                                What the hell are you talking about now?

                                Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                                Of course, they will never die with those who want the Russians to be what they would like them to be and to do what they are told to do.
                                We are still talking about movies... right?

                                Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                                Orcs is the only accurate word to describe the way they were portrayed in Enema at the Gates. You've already been presented the evidence in the form of screenshots. The Hollywood seemed to have stripped all circuses of freaks to fill its Red Army personnel cast.
                                "Orcs" is a straw-man, you invented it to make your opponents look bad, and I have never heard that term used by anyone in the west.

                                You honestly have a problem with the cast?
                                Do you have any idea who Bob Hoskins is?
                                Or Jude Law?
                                Ralph Fines?
                                Rachel Weiss?
                                Oh, Ron Pearlman must have caught your eye. He's a rough & ready type, and also one of my favorite actors going back a long way.

                                If those people are not good enough for you, I don't know who possibly could be.

                                Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                                I'm not claiming "superior trauma", it's just you who can't possibly understand what the German invasion was for the Russians.
                                Nope, I sure don't.
                                I wasn't there.
                                How about you, eh?
                                "Why is the Rum gone?"

                                -Captain Jack

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