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  • Erkki
    replied
    Originally posted by Domenic View Post
    The "proof" is in hundreds of books. 5 million militia by 12/30/41 alone.
    None of these poor souls are registered as "army" deaths.
    Then you have plenty to chose from, get busy

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Domenic View Post
    The "proof" is in hundreds of books. 5 million militia by 12/30/41 alone.
    None of these poor souls are registered as "army" deaths.
    Absolute BS. They wore military insignia, were organised practically the same way as regular army units and were considered combatants by all sides in the conflict. Moreover, the People's Militia units fought as such only at the Luga Belt and at the approaches to Leningrad. In other regions they either were not fomed because of the German occupation of these territories or started the combat. On top of this, in the end of September 1941 all People's Militia divisions were reformed into regular divisions. I wonder where you only got this date, as well as the 5 million number. If volunteer formations, made up of men who weren't immediately drafted, were that numerous, then what was the size of the conscripted army then? 15-20 million?

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  • Domenic
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    What about the proofs for your claims ?
    The "proof" is in hundreds of books. 5 million militia by 12/30/41 alone.
    None of these poor souls are registered as "army" deaths.

    Leave a comment:


  • Erkki
    replied
    Hmm Well "Ostrov" is a good movie, if you like Maffia movies like I do Brat, Brat 2 and Zhmurki, Sistra are pretty good to.

    Hmm Rota 9 is thrashed pretty bad I hear most saying it is garbage. I only watched a part of it as it was Polish dubbed, no offense to the Poles but I canīt stand dubbing!

    Leave a comment:


  • Tuomas_
    replied
    Just got hold of and watched Brest Fortress. An excellent movie, thanks for the suggestion. Had never really thought in detail how the 15 million deaths accumulated, but it must have been something exactly like that, a complete disregard (or worse) for civilian life.

    Any more recent Russian movies?

    How would you guys rate 9th Company? I got the impression that at least the final battle scene is unrealistic, plenty of lead flying but the baddies just keep walking at your position unharmed.

    [Off topic: Conceivably some Poles might have preferred a thid option, being liberated from the deadly Nazi rule by the Soviets, but then after war not having to learn Russian at school, with or without Levi's. IIUC, Stalin made some comment to Roosevelt to that effect in the Tehran talks. Maybe that's where the attitude comes from. But yes, blinkers-wearing nationalists are always tiring. And this is indeed off-topic.]

    Leave a comment:


  • Erkki
    replied
    Originally posted by Domenic View Post
    Cute...but hardly proof of anything.
    You are a very interesting individual considering such matters cute.

    Anyway what is that you want proof of? And do you really care about is as your "proof" goes as far as some anonymous German general.

    Leave a comment:


  • Emtos
    replied
    Cute...but hardly proof of anything.
    What about the proofs for your claims ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Domenic
    replied
    Originally posted by Erkki View Post
    Ah yes... Sometimes the Germans was even quite successful
    Cute...but hardly proof of anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • Erkki
    replied
    their use was so prevalent that the German army attempted to remove the populations of areas that they left
    Ah yes... Sometimes the Germans was even quite successful


    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Domenic View Post
    I can explain it. Civilians were taken into the army by the millions. Soviet documents did not keep records of their deaths. From 1943 on, the Red Army litterally emptied towns of their people and impressed them into front-line units. According to Soviet accounts, their NCOs were supposed to track these "newcomers" but claimed that most were killed before they ever got to know their names. Indeed, their use was so prevalent that the German army attempted to remove the populations of areas that they left, adding them to their retreat. As a German general said, "They were only old men and boys, but there were SO MANY OF THEM".
    Hope you can also explain the Holocaust by the Red Army forcing the Jews into its ranks and using as cannon fodder. All death camp documents were forged by the Soviets and no Soviet documents are accessible because of Evil Putin, of course. A quote from "a German General" would be proof enough. Finally there'll be an elegant and logical explanation for the likes of Exorcist, absolving his heroic anti-Communist German war professionals of the undeserved slander and exposing the real villains.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domenic
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post


    90 % of events of the film were shown as they were lived by those people.

    Dare explain us the fact that around 15 millions of Soviet civilians were killed during the war.
    I can explain it. Civilians were taken into the army by the millions. Soviet documents did not keep records of their deaths. From 1943 on, the Red Army litterally emptied towns of their people and impressed them into front-line units. According to Soviet accounts, their NCOs were supposed to track these "newcomers" but claimed that most were killed before they ever got to know their names. Indeed, their use was so prevalent that the German army attempted to remove the populations of areas that they left, adding them to their retreat. As a German general said, "They were only old men and boys, but there were SO MANY OF THEM".

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    That's the trouble with reading between the lines; you see what you want to see.
    I'm sorry, but this seems to be exactly your problem.

    And if you will notice, I'm not contradicting your assessment of the Germans.
    Ah, but nobody noticed that.... big surprise.
    I'm saying that the portrayal of them in these movies is tiresome and repetitive. Helps make the movies themselves boring and eliminates any real desire to see any more of them.
    So are you suggesting to rewrite history to make it more "cativating"? If these actions happened, why the heck must we deliberately ignore them only to please a small bunch of American Wehrmacht fanboys who want to see their heroes in a more sophisticated and nuanced light? If you suggest the pro-German doctored version would sell better in the States - well, maybe we're not Capitalist enough and prefer to stick to historical accuracy.

    I say that certain portrayals are over the top and stereotypical, and for that you brand me a -lover.
    If they behaved exactly like it was in the "stereotypes", and it was documented, what's your problem?

    As for the lover, if you see someone bashing Russia on every single occasion and seeing every historical WW2 event and alternative from a purely Third Reich perspective, you can easily apply the walking and quacking duck rule. You might claim greater sophistication, but I don't really care if it's a mandarin duck and not a usual one.

    Don't you ever wonder why some Cold-War stereotypes never seem to die vis-a-vi the Russians, you have no further to look than your own self.
    Of course, they will never die with those who want the Russians to be what they would like them to be and to do what they are told to do.

    I never called the Russians "orcs" nor have I ever met anyone who did. I had assumed that any poster that did was being sarcastic, and in fact you are the only one I recall ever using that term in the first place.
    Orcs is the only accurate word to describe the way they were portrayed in Enema at the Gates. You've already been presented the evidence in the form of screenshots. The Hollywood seemed to have stripped all circuses of freaks to fill its Red Army personnel cast.

    Now, sure you can claim the superior trauma and all, but the Civil War we had in the US was pretty horrendous too, and the Confederacy had some eerie similarities to the Third Reich.
    Comparison with Civil War - Facepalm.jpg

    I'm not claiming "superior trauma", it's just you who can't possibly understand what the German invasion was for the Russians.

    There are people in this country that still take that war very seriously and try to use it to justify current events and attitudes.
    They are, in a word, laughable.
    I'm just glad there are so few of them.
    See just above.

    Well, I guess I'm too radical for this RKKA area, time to take another year off and leave all discussion to one side of the issue, again.
    We're all waiting with bated breath when you deign to enlighten us another time on how we should portray the Germans.

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    Reminds me :

    Soviet journalist Boris Strelnikov who worked in USA told this :
    -You know Miss Green that we lost 20 millions of people during the war ?
    -It's impossible ! In USA the life was difficult too. Gas was rationed and it was hard to buy chicken.
    Just brilliant. If only more characters were allowed in the signature, I would add it there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Emtos
    replied
    That's the trouble with reading between the lines; you see what you want to see.

    And if you will notice, I'm not contradicting your assessment of the Germans.
    Ah, but nobody noticed that.... big surprise.
    I'm saying that the portrayal of them in these movies is tiresome and repetitive. Helps make the movies themselves boring and eliminates any real desire to see any more of them.

    I say that certain portrayals are over the top and stereotypical, and for that you brand me a -lover.
    Don't you ever wonder why some Cold-War stereotypes never seem to die vis-a-vi the Russians, you have no further to look than your own self.

    I never called the Russians "orcs" nor have I ever met anyone who did. I had assumed that any poster that did was being sarcastic, and in fact you are the only one I recall ever using that term in the first place.

    Now, sure you can claim the superior trauma and all, but the Civil War we had in the US was pretty horrendous too, and the Confederacy had some eerie similarities to the Third Reich.
    There are people in this country that still take that war very seriously and try to use it to justify current events and attitudes.
    They are, in a word, laughable.
    I'm just glad there are so few of them.

    Well, I guess I'm too radical for this RKKA area, time to take another year off and leave all discussion to one side of the issue, again.


    Edit - almost forgot, they don't like the K-word here.... among a multitude of others that were freely in use just a couple of years ago.

    Reminds me :

    Soviet journalist Boris Strelnikov who worked in USA told this :
    -You know Miss Green that we lost 20 millions of people during the war ?
    -It's impossible ! In USA the life was difficult too. Gas was rationed and it was hard to buy chicken.

    Its the same with our conversation. We speak about 27 millions of death, when you try to convict us that the Confedarates were bad guys too and that portray Nazis like killers is boring and stereotipical.

    I only can you suggest to make a movie about brave NVA fighting invading genocidal Americans or Talibans killing Westerners for the freedom of their country. It will be more occurate that Germanic knights in Eastern front.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    That's the trouble with reading between the lines; you see what you want to see.

    And if you will notice, I'm not contradicting your assessment of the Germans.
    Ah, but nobody noticed that.... big surprise.
    I'm saying that the portrayal of them in these movies is tiresome and repetitive. Helps make the movies themselves boring and eliminates any real desire to see any more of them.

    I say that certain portrayals are over the top and stereotypical, and for that you brand me a -lover.
    Don't you ever wonder why some Cold-War stereotypes never seem to die vis-a-vi the Russians, you have no further to look than your own self.

    I never called the Russians "orcs" nor have I ever met anyone who did. I had assumed that any poster that did was being sarcastic, and in fact you are the only one I recall ever using that term in the first place.

    Now, sure you can claim the superior trauma and all, but the Civil War we had in the US was pretty horrendous too, and the Confederacy had some eerie similarities to the Third Reich.
    There are people in this country that still take that war very seriously and try to use it to justify current events and attitudes.
    They are, in a word, laughable.
    I'm just glad there are so few of them.

    Well, I guess I'm too radical for this RKKA area, time to take another year off and leave all discussion to one side of the issue, again.


    Edit - almost forgot, they don't like the K-word here.... among a multitude of others that were freely in use just a couple of years ago.
    Last edited by The Exorcist; 19 Jul 11, 02:54.

    Leave a comment:

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