Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Zitadelle: Russian defensive lines and troops

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Zitadelle: Russian defensive lines and troops

    Hello,

    for a wargame I'm reconstructing a battle in the Zitadelle area.

    It will be 1st SS Panzergrenadier Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler against a well build Russian defensive line and Russian armored reinforcements.

    this is the map I'm using to build the defense:


    for the Germans, always easier to find sources:
    1. SS Panzergrenadier Division Leibstandarte 'Adolf Hitler'
    under command of: SS Brigadeführer Wisch

    1 SS Panzer Regiment
    1 SS Panzer Grenadier-Regiment
    2 SS Panzer Grenadier-Regiment
    1 SS Panzer Artillerie-Regiment
    1 SS Panzer-Reconnaissance-Bataillon
    1 SS Panzer-Engineer-Bataillon
    1 SS Flak-Bataillon

    armor:
    106 tanks
    35 assault guns
    __________________________________

    SS Panzerregiment 1 from LSSAH
    4 Pz II
    3 Pz III (short 50)
    10 Pz III (long 50)
    67 Pz IV (long 75)
    13 Pz VI
    9 Panzer Befehlspanzer
    _________________________________

    I.Pz.Jager Abt./1.SSLAH was allocated 4 Marder III Ausf M ( Sd Kfz 138 ) in June 1943
    As for Stugs, they had a mixture of Stug III F-8's and Stug III G (early)
    _________________________________

    3 PzI 4 PzII 3 PzIII(kz) 10 PzIII(lg) 67 PzIV(lg) 13 PzVI 9 PzBef 35 StuG 40, 21 Marder, 6 Hummel, 12 Wespe, 12 Bison
    for the Russians:

    45 & 76mm ATG's
    82 & 120mm artillery
    wooden pillboxes
    trenches (lots and lots of them)
    T-34's
    lots of infantry
    anti-personel mines in front of ant-tank mines

    what I'm asking/looking for is a realistic feeling:
    how many 45mm compared to 76mm ATG's?
    what about arty? 82 compared to 120?
    how many pillboxes for every kilometer?
    T-34's? how should I compare the amount of T-34s against Panthers/Tigers?
    were there only T-34s or also atguns self-propelled? which ones and how many compared to T-34s...

    So, I'm not looking for the complete OOB or strenght but a realistic view on the Russian build-up.

    thanks in advance

    Koen
    War and Tactics
    WaT on YouTube

  • #2
    How historical is this supposed to be? Because the LSSAH didn't attack in this area. It was on the left flank of the SS Panzer Corps attacking up the road from Tomarovka to Bykova.

    There are several good books on Kursk. Zetterling has the breakdown of the tank types. No Panthers, though. The number of Tigers to other German tank types was, very roughly, around 10-15% I think.

    I think all of the Russian self-propelled guns/tank destroyers (SUs) were in independent regiments. The tank corps were about 2/3 T-34/76s and 1/3 T-70s.
    "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

    Comment


    • #3
      The area of the map was probably one of the most heavily defended stretches of the line. You count the numbers of pill boxes, etc. to see what the density is. On July 5th most of that area was defended by the 375th Rifle Division reinforced by three AT artillery regiments, one mortar regiment, one artillery regiment, two rocket launcher regiments, a tank brigade, three flamethrower companies, one AT rifle company, and an armored train battalion!
      "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kardon View Post
        How historical is this supposed to be? Because the LSSAH didn't attack in this area. It was on the left flank of the SS Panzer Corps attacking up the road from Tomarovka to Bykova.

        There are several good books on Kursk. Zetterling has the breakdown of the tank types. No Panthers, though. The number of Tigers to other German tank types was, very roughly, around 10-15% I think.

        I think all of the Russian self-propelled guns/tank destroyers (SUs) were in independent regiments. The tank corps were about 2/3 T-34/76s and 1/3 T-70s.
        well, I first choose LLSAH and then found the map so, as you say, there's no historical connection between both.
        I would like to keep LSSAH and use the map as example for the defenses.

        Are the panzers I wrote down correct for LSSAH?
        you wrote 'no Panthers', is that also for LSSAH?

        The area of the map was probably one of the most heavily defended stretches of the line. You count the numbers of pill boxes, etc. to see what the density is. On July 5th most of that area was defended by the 375th Rifle Division reinforced by three AT artillery regiments, one mortar regiment, one artillery regiment, two rocket launcher regiments, a tank brigade, three flamethrower companies, one AT rifle company, and an armored train battalion!
        Is what you wrote here about the Russian forces something I could use, even if it is against LSSAH?
        It is a nice mixture to play with!

        thx for the info
        War and Tactics
        WaT on YouTube

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Koen[B] View Post
          Are the panzers I wrote down correct for LSSAH?
          you wrote 'no Panthers', is that also for LSSAH?
          Your map is for the Battle of Kursk, and at Kursk LSSAH had no Panthers. Later on in the war it might have had some. By 1943 a German division rarely, if ever, had a full complement of tanks. You can probably find the full TO&E online, but any number below that is reasonable.
          "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Koen[B] View Post
            Is what you wrote here about the Russian forces something I could use, even if it is against LSSAH?
            Well, if it's not a historical battle, then you can use whatever you feel like!
            "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Kardon View Post
              Well, if it's not a historical battle, then you can use whatever you feel like!
              well, what if I do want it to be historical and I would use your advice on the russian forces (what you wrote before), what would the German opponents look like?
              War and Tactics
              WaT on YouTube

              Comment

              Latest Topics

              Collapse

              Working...
              X