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  • What did the Soviet people fight for

    http://militera.lib.ru/research/dukov_ar/

    Here is an excellent book by Diukov - "What did the Soviet people fight for".

    It is in Russian.

  • #2
    There seems to be a rising trend to try to claim that the war was about fighting for the Rodina, as if from a Russian perspective. As Stalin might right: this is not true(funny if you have read Stalin's writing). I believe this myth has actually played into the hands of those who sought to bring down the Soviet Union by playing the minorities off against the Russians. In other words- "the GPW was "their war", and look- only the Russians seem to venerate it so much!"

    The "fighting for the motherland" claim ignores several things. First off, the huge contribution of Belorussians and Ukrainians. When you look at the statistics, it is very clear that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians and Belorussians did not in fact "greet the Germans as liberators". In fact those few that did would later come to regret their stupidity in believing that an imperialist power actually cared about their well-being and independence(too bad modern Ukrainian nationalists haven't figured this out yet). Then of course there was the massive contribution of Volga Tatars, in addition to Kazakhs, Uzbeks, etc.- people whose lands were not actually invaded. It should also remember that unlike Napoleon's invasion, the Germans penetrated beyond historical Slavic land into Tatar/Turk land. Let nobody forget that Stalingrad lies within the old Astrakhan Khanate, and prior to that the Golden Horde territory.

    Next, if a revival of Russian Orthodoxy and nationalism supposedly is the reason for victory, it again cannot explain the contribution and patriotism of the Muslim and Jewish populations, and the contributions of their soldiers. In fact, Islam also enjoyed a revival during that time as well, as was reported last spring in a Russian publication. Perhaps more importantly, if "Mother Russia" is all that must be invoked to get Russians to stand to the death- why didn't that work during WWI/Russian Civil War? However "nationalist" one sees the Soviet Union during 1942-45, it is indisputable that the White Guards were true bearers of Russian nationalism and tradition, yet they lost. They lost against what should have been a much weaker army and with the assistance of the Americans, British, Japanese, French, and many, many others. I guess food is a bigger motivator than national symbols.


    The fact is however, that they were most likely not much more motivated for the Socialist motherland than a non-Socialist one, because studies show that these things have little to do with combat motivation. What US military studies do show is that men will fight for the small groups of peers around them(e.g. the squad), and little else. They do what their close buddies are doing, and they will act because they do not want to shame themselves in their eyes. Ideas like "freedom", "democracy", or "home country" don't really mean much in that sense.

    But now that we know of these post-war studies, it does tell us something very interesting about one of the Red Army's greatest accomplishments- because they were able to get this kind of performance from their soldiers despite a huge variety of nationalities and linguistic groups. The US army, by contrast, had to be segregated, and racial prejudices common to that era in the States would have undoubtedly caused huge problems with unit cohesion, and prevented the kind of trust that is needed to foster the proper motivation.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
      There seems to be a rising trend to try to claim that the war was about fighting for the Rodina, as if from a Russian perspective. As Stalin might right: this is not true(funny if you have read Stalin's writing). I believe this myth has actually played into the hands of those who sought to bring down the Soviet Union by playing the minorities off against the Russians. In other words- "the GPW was "their war", and look- only the Russians seem to venerate it so much!"
      ?????

      The book describes
      - how the Germans treated to Soviet people (like to untermenchen), there are numerous examples of crimes of German soldiers (both SS-men and Wiermacht)
      - how the Germans eliminated Jews in the occupied territory of the USSR
      - the economical policy of Germany in the occupied territory of the USSR
      - the artifical hunger in winter 1941-42 in the occupied territory and the results of it
      - how they treated to Soviet POWs
      - how they transfer millions of Soviet to Germany as slaves and how they treated to them there
      - how the Germans fought against partisans and what was the resukt of thee actions
      - about the "scorched earth" tactics of the retreating Germans.

      It is really horrific to read it...

      So the main idea that it was war about the existence of Soviet people. If Red Army had lost many peoples of the USSR were to be eliminated.

      The Germans supposed Soviets not as equal opponents but as untermenchen, like semi-animal who were to be eliminated.

      So every Soviet soldier did fought for his Motherland, for his people.

      The "fighting for the motherland" claim ignores several things. First off, the huge contribution of Belorussians and Ukrainians. When you look at the statistics, it is very clear that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians and Belorussians did not in fact "greet the Germans as liberators". In fact those few that did would later come to regret their stupidity in believing that an imperialist power actually cared about their well-being and independence(too bad modern Ukrainian nationalists haven't figured this out yet). Then of course there was the massive contribution of Volga Tatars, in addition to Kazakhs, Uzbeks, etc.- people whose lands were not actually invaded. It should also remember that unlike Napoleon's invasion, the Germans penetrated beyond historical Slavic land into Tatar/Turk land. Let nobody forget that Stalingrad lies within the old Astrakhan Khanate, and prior to that the Golden Horde territory.
      ?????

      Yes, the USSR was a multi-national state.

      Practically, the USSR existed in borders of the pre-rovolution Russia.

      The same people who were in the USSR were in pre-revolution Russia.

      So what?

      Next, if a revival of Russian Orthodoxy and nationalism supposedly is the reason for victory, it again cannot explain the contribution and patriotism of the Muslim and Jewish populations, and the contributions of their soldiers. In fact, Islam also enjoyed a revival during that time as well, as was reported last spring in a Russian publication.
      All the people of the USSR felt themselves as citizens of the USSR. The USSR was not a country of Russians where a few others peoples lived. It was united homeland of al the nationalities who lived there.

      Perhaps more importantly, if "Mother Russia" is all that must be invoked to get Russians to stand to the death- why didn't that work during WWI/Russian Civil War?
      What is about WWI? The Russian soldiers fought very well in WWI. Like in all the other wars where Russia had took part before.

      However "nationalist" one sees the Soviet Union during 1942-45, it is indisputable that the White Guards were true bearers of Russian nationalism and tradition, yet they lost.
      ????

      Why???

      One of the reasons why some officers of Tsarist Russian Army joined to the Reds in the Civil War was that they wanted to serve to Russia independetly who was the Russian ruler...

      They lost against what should have been a much weaker army and with the assistance of the Americans, British, Japanese, French, and many, many others. I guess food is a bigger motivator than national symbols.
      ????

      Reds used forced mobilization of people to their troops so they had large numerical supremacy over Whites.

      The fact is however, that they were most likely not much more motivated for the Socialist motherland than a non-Socialist one, because studies show that these things have little to do with combat motivation. What US military studies do show is that men will fight for the small groups of peers around them(e.g. the squad), and little else. They do what their close buddies are doing, and they will act because they do not want to shame themselves in their eyes. Ideas like "freedom", "democracy", or "home country" don't really mean much in that sense.
      Americans is a nation of individuals. The Russians are other. Why to use American standarts in the amnalizes of the others????

      But now that we know of these post-war studies, it does tell us something very interesting about one of the Red Army's greatest accomplishments- because they were able to get this kind of performance from their soldiers despite a huge variety of nationalities and linguistic groups. The US army, by contrast, had to be segregated, and racial prejudices common to that era in the States would have undoubtedly caused huge problems with unit cohesion, and prevented the kind of trust that is needed to foster the proper motivation.
      Soviet soldiers fought for their common homeland. Like in past.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Andrey View Post



        All the people of the USSR felt themselves as citizens of the USSR. The USSR was not a country of Russians where a few others peoples lived. It was united homeland of al the nationalities who lived there.

        Ukrainians considered Ukraine as their homeland, Armenians considered Armenia, Lithuanians - Lithuania and so on.
        USSR wasn't considered homeland by the majority of its nations that resulted in this state collapse and disintegration several decades later.
        Last edited by Shamil; 08 Sep 09, 11:06.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Shamil View Post
          Ukrainians considered Ukraine as their homeland, Armenians considered Armenia, Lithuanians - Lithuania and so on.
          USSR wasn't considered homeland by the majority of its nations that resulted in this state collapse and disintegration several decades later.
          BS. Back then such people were a tiny minority and lived predominantly in the Western Ukraine.
          www.histours.ru

          Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ShAA View Post
            BS. Back then such people were a tiny minority and lived predominantly in the Western Ukraine.

            It is a very pathetic statement considering that just twenty years before the anti-soviet resistance in Western/partly Central Ukraine there had been Nestor Machno and lots of other Ukrainian warlords in the Eastern and Southern Ukraine. They killed Moscuvite occupants like dogs irrespectively whether they were "red" or "white" The similar situation was in the Caucasus and Central Asia. The deportation of the whole nations of Crimean Tartars, Volgian Germans, Chechens, Ingushians, the communities of South Ukrainian Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians as the enemies of Soviet state clearly illustrates who tells BS
            Last edited by Shamil; 08 Sep 09, 13:50.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Shamil View Post
              It is a very pathetic statement considering that just twenty years before the anti-soviet resistance in Western/partly Central Ukraine there had been Nestor Machno and lots of other Ukrainian warlords in the Eastern and Southern Ukraine. They killed Moscuvite occupants like dogs irrespectively whether they were "red" or "white".
              Ahaha, and who were the ethnic Russian gangs in Siberia, the Urals and other regions who fought against everyone? This was the time when scumbags of all sorts found an opportune time to kill and plunder, irrespective of nationality and political beliefs. As for Makno, this statement in perfectly ridiculous. Or does the fact that they killed Petlyura's men like dogs mean they hated Ukrainians too?

              The the ones you mean were weeded out in the 1950s - a tiny bunch of "Ukrainian" nationalist rats who pooped bricks sitting in their filthy cellars and waiting the NKVD to come .

              The similar situation was in the Caucasus and Central Asia. The deportation of the whole nations of Crimean Tartars, Volgian Germans, Chechens, Ingushians, and communities of South Ukrainian Greeks, Armenians and Bulgarians as the enemies of Soviet state clearly illustrates who tells BS
              Yeah, and the number of deported and imprisoned Russians exceeded all of these nations by a factor of 10. So what?
              www.histours.ru

              Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                Ukrainians considered Ukraine as their homeland, Armenians considered Armenia, Lithuanians - Lithuania and so on.
                USSR wasn't considered homeland by the majority of its nations that resulted in this state collapse and disintegration several decades later.
                Must burn you up knowing that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians fought for the USSR rather than against it, and a great deal of those that did- such as those in the UVV, were just trying to get out of starvation.


                Nestor Makhno- lol.
                Last edited by Cmde.Slavyanski; 08 Sep 09, 16:49.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                  Ahaha, and who were the ethnic Russian gangs in Siberia, the Urals and other regions who fought against everyone?
                  They were called "Whites" in the civil war and their worlords were Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel and so on, baby.

                  This was the time when scumbags of all sorts found an opportune time to kill and plunder, irrespective of nationality and political beliefs. As for Makno, this statement in perfectly ridiculous. Or does the fact that they killed Petlyura's men like dogs mean they hated Ukrainians too?
                  There were some clashes between Petlura's troops and Makhnovites but they mainly adhered to ceasefire agreement.
                  Different factions of OUN also had temporary clashes so what?



                  The the ones you mean were weeded out in the 1950s - a tiny bunch of "Ukrainian" nationalist rats who pooped bricks sitting in their filthy cellars and waiting the NKVD to come .
                  At least they waited NKVD to give a fight unlike Russians who were eager to save their asses by bootlicking Stalin and Co for decades, silently watching how their neighbours and relatives got arrested and killed. Self-betrayal, criminal indifference, slave mentality are parts of the Russian patriotic way of life.

                  So it is a small wonder why current Russian patriots swear Ukrainian nationalists or forest brothers who tried to avoid the destiny of Russians

                  Russian patriots always side with Soviet punative machine that was the main butcher of the Russian population. Russian patriotism is a form of sadomasochism


                  Yeah, and the number of deported and imprisoned Russians exceeded all of these nations by a factor of 10. So what?

                  Nothing, you don't care how many Russians Stalin's regime killed. For you Stalin played on the Russian side and all the rest on the enemy side.

                  These nations were totally deported and publicly called traitors for siding with Germans. It means that the USSR wasn't viewed as "united homeland of al the nationalities who lived there" neither by nationalities nor by the Soviet leadership. That was the original statement by other poster that I answered. But, of course, you can go on trolling how all the Soviet nations wanted to live in this pardise on earth known as the USSR especially under state under the wise leadership of father of all nations comarade Stalin.
                  Last edited by Shamil; 08 Sep 09, 17:25.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
                    Must burn you up knowing that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians fought for the USSR rather than against it, and a great deal of those that did- such as those in the UVV, were just trying to get out of starvation.


                    Nestor Makhno- lol.
                    The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians had no other choice but be recruited to the Red Army and stay there considering German attiutude to Slavs and especially to Red Army POWs.

                    By the way, how is your progress in building Albanian Hoxha-style communism in the Russian Federation? How do you feel Muscovites will see the revival of non-revised real Soviet communism of 1930s?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The licker of the West's boots accuses Muscovites of having a slave mentality. Does it ever even occur to you to consider how many "Muscovites" are in fact of obvious Ukrainian descent?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                        The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians had no other choice but be recruited to the Red Army and stay there considering German attiutude to Slavs and especially to Red Army POWs.
                        Yeah that's why they volunteered, sure. That's why Ukrainians were the second largest ethnic group of HSU award winners during the war. That's why instead of collaborating, tens of thousands joined the partisans. Keep dreaming

                        Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                        By the way, how is your progress in building Albanian Hoxha-style communism in the Russian Federation? How do you feel Muscovites will see the revival of non-revised real Soviet communism of 1930s?
                        Typical response when I back someone into a corner in a debate- HEY! HOW'S DAT ALBANIAN COMMUNISM GOING? HAW HAW HAW! Yeah, that's exactly what I do here in Russia- hand out leaflets promoting Albanian Brand Communism(tm). And yes, I advocate the exact emulation of Soviet policy under Stalin, because it's not like one can benefit from the past mistakes of those who did not have the luxury of hindsight or anything.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
                          The licker of the West's boots accuses Muscovites of having a slave mentality. Does it ever even occur to you to consider how many "Muscovites" are in fact of obvious Ukrainian descent?

                          Comarade, You are a citizen of the US and thus according to Marxist logic you are a bootklicker of the Western boots by your legal status so don't accuse others of your personal Marxist sins.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                            They were called "Whites" in the civil war and their worlords were Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel and so on, baby.
                            Epic fail on your part, as always. Semyonov and Ungern were just the biggest of those who had their own agenda. You're following the footsteps of Bolshevik historians who called everybody who fought against the Reds as "Whites".

                            There were some clashes between Petlura's troops and Makhno but they mainly adhered to a ceasefire agreement.
                            Clashes? You're delusional. They fought each other hard until Makhno's ass got fried by the Reds and he started considering an alliance - just like he had allied himself with the Reds and Denikin.

                            Different factions of OUN also had temporary clashes so what?
                            That's what politics is about, here's a surprise for you. Hated enemies make alliances, ever heard of it? When these alliances cease to be beneficial to them they're at each other's throats again.

                            At least they waited NKVD to give a fight unlike Russians who were eager to save their asses by bootlicking Stalin and Co for decades, silently watching how their neighbours and relatives got arrested and killed. Self-betrayal, criminal indifference, slave mentality are parts of the Russian patriotic way of life.
                            The same can be said of skinheads who say they "fight the system". In fact they are just brainless xenophobic a**holes, like your Bandera and his slimy scumbags.

                            So it is a small wonder why current Russian patriots swear Ukrainian nationalists or forest brothers who tried to avoid the destiny of Russians
                            If the Ukronazis weren't so persistent to get into any Russia-related discussion - and this is the sole aim of your presence at this forum - they wouldn't care less about the existence of these pests.

                            Russian patriots always side with Soviet punative machine that was the main butcher of the Russian population. Russian patriotism is a form of sadomasochism
                            Go anal-yse yourself, Dr. Freud.

                            These nations were totally deported and publicly called traitors for siding with Germans. It means that the USSR wasn't viewed as "united homeland of al the nationalities who lived there" neither by nationalities nor by the Soviet leadership. That was the original statement by other poster that I answered. But, of course, you can go on trolling how all the Soviet nations wanted to live in this pardise on earth known as the USSR especially under state under the wise leadership of father of all nations comarade Stalin.
                            Many nations were deported illegally and groundlessly, nevertheless it doesn't negate the fact it was a united homeland. The US interned the Japanese and even some Germans - does it make it a Nazi state?
                            www.histours.ru

                            Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                              Comarade, You are a citizen of the US and thus according to Marxist logic you are a bootklicker of the Western boots by your legal status so don't accuse others of your personal Marxist sins.
                              Down the rabbit hole of idiocy I see. I am a citizen and I oppose my government's imperialist policy and its ruling class. You apparenlty are willing to defending it at all costs because you think they give a damn about you and the idiotic rival between your bi-color rag and a tri-colored one.

                              Comment

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