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Monument to Nazi collaborators in the center of Moscow

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  • Monument to Nazi collaborators in the center of Moscow

    The monument was erected near the catherdral of All Saints (храм Всех Святых) in Moscow.

    It has the engraved dedication "to the warriors of Russian military union, Russian Corps, cossack stan and Cossack Cavalry Corps who died for faith and motherland" Cossack Cavalry Corps implies the XV SS Cossack Cavalry Corps, all the rest were the Nazi collabarant Russian organisations. The monument also contains names of senior cossack leaders collaborating with Nazis.






    In the light of recent Medvedev's laying flowers to the monument of Nazi ally Mannerheim during official visit to Finland I wonder on what grounds official Kremlin and its supporters accuse neighbouring countries of rehabilitating Nazism and collaborators?
    Last edited by Shamil; 28 May 09, 02:38.

  • #2
    You're a bit late - it has already been broken by some unknown patriots. It was put up there on a private initiative and Russia doesn't have a round-the-clock thought and memory police to watch all the little monuments that people put up privately on their private grounds. In order to remove it, a court ruling had to be made anyway, so the state has nothing to do with it.
    www.histours.ru

    Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ShAA View Post
      You're a bit late - it has already been broken by some unknown patriots. It was put up there on a private initiative and Russia doesn't have a round-the-clock thought and memory police to watch all the little monuments that people put up privately on their private grounds. In order to remove it, a court ruling had to be made anyway, so the state has nothing to do with it.

      It was broken in 2007 but was restored and still stands. http://www.ikd.ru/node/6496

      It does not stand on private grounds. It is in the territory of the cathedral of All Saints that belongs to the official Russian Orthodox Church. It is a public and open place, evidentally one of tourist destinations. And there is no need denying that all the monuments can be erected and stand in Moscow only if there is the official permission from authorities.
      Last edited by Shamil; 28 May 09, 06:47.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Shamil View Post
        It was broken in 2007 but was restored and still stands. http://www.ikd.ru/node/6496

        It does not stand on private grounds. It is in the territory of the cathedral of All Saints that belongs to the official Russian Orthodox Church. It is a public and open place, evidentally one of tourist destinations. And there is no need denying that all the monuments can be erected and stand in Moscow only if there is the official permission from authorities.
        The monument appeared in the 90ies during Yeltsin's years. And if you think the authorities can tear down any monument they don't like and even have a unified ideology that can be applied in this case - you're severely wrong. For good or bad freedom of speech does exist here, and even not all of Putin's party officials (more like a collection of loyalist corrupt bureaucrats than a party in its full sense) have a uniform view on the matter.
        www.histours.ru

        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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        • #5
          I'm reminded of a story about a statue of Mussolini in some Italian city or other. After 1945 some citizens thought it should be removed. the Mayor remarked that there were statues of worse leaders than Mussolini still standing about the city, so Bentio could stand as well.

          Here in the US monuments and displays like this litter the landscape. The most common are those refering to Confederate rebellion over slavery. Fairly offensive to many of us. But there is that freedom of speech thing, and fussing over it puts no bread on the table or money in my pocket.

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          • #6
            I dont see a problem with such a monument. They fought for what they saw as Russia's best interests, ie the side that sought to overthrow the Communists.

            There's plenty of monuments honouring the sacrifices made by the men of the Red Army in Russia.
            Last edited by Pilsudski; 28 May 09, 22:40.
            "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
            --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post
              I dont see a problem with such a monument. They fought for what they saw as Russia's best interests, ie the side that sought to overthrow the Communists.
              This was the ultimate expression of the term "useful idiots" - hating your government so much that you would fight for the one that would genocide your own people. Thanks, but we don't need monuments to such people.
              www.histours.ru

              Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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              • #8
                Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                This was the ultimate expression of the term "useful idiots" - hating your government so much that you would fight for the one that would genocide your own people. Thanks, but we don't need monuments to such people.
                So have monuments to Stalin's "useful idiots" instead?
                "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
                --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post
                  So have monuments to Stalin's "useful idiots" instead?
                  What do you mean? They fought to save the country, and they did it. Had those who supported Hitler won, there would be neither Russia, nor Russian people. And Polish too, by the way.
                  www.histours.ru

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                    What do you mean? They fought to save the country, and they did it.
                    They also made sure a brutal regime would survive for another 50 years, and be able to oppress millions more. That's the tragedy here really.

                    Had those who supported Hitler won, there would be neither Russia, nor Russian people. And Polish too, by the way.
                    I'm well aware of that. I fully agree Stalin was the lesser of two evils; but let's not indiscriminately **** on those who fought for the other side, they were as patriotic fighters as those who fought in the Red Army. They both fought for Russia's best interests as they saw it.
                    "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
                    --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post
                      They also made sure a brutal regime would survive for another 50 years, and be able to oppress millions more. That's the tragedy here really.
                      While less openly brutal, many say the same for the US and the system it has imposed well...until now in the rest of the world. I tend to favour that system btw as it has more good than bad but it still has some bad. Same with the Soviet.

                      As an aside, how many of these people (collaborationist) were forced to fight to avoid starvation or worse treatment? I'm asking cause I read the same for many member's of Chandra Bose's army fighting the Brits in SE Asia, and the SS units made of Indian POWs.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post
                        They also made sure a brutal regime would survive for another 50 years, and be able to oppress millions more. That's the tragedy here really.
                        If you see no difference between "oppress" and "exterminate" there's no use in arguing with you. I remember one phrase of some guy from a Polish forum that delivered lots of "lulz" to the Russians: "It's better to be a piece of soap in the hands of a nice German frau than to suffer from these Asiatic barbarians"

                        I'm well aware of that. I fully agree Stalin was the lesser of two evils; but let's not indiscriminately **** on those who fought for the other side, they were as patriotic fighters as those who fought in the Red Army. They both fought for Russia's best interests as they saw it.
                        Yeah, and Hitler fought for the best interests of Germany as he saw them. Your logic is thoroughly flawed here.
                        www.histours.ru

                        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                        • #13
                          "It's better to be a piece of soap in the hands of a nice German frau than to suffer from these Asiatic barbarians"
                          That is one of the stupidest comment I have ever heard....That poor guy know Polish are Slavs like Russians?
                          It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                            The monument appeared in the 90ies during Yeltsin's years. And if you think the authorities can tear down any monument they don't like and even have a unified ideology that can be applied in this case - you're severely wrong. For good or bad freedom of speech does exist here, and even not all of Putin's party officials (more like a collection of loyalist corrupt bureaucrats than a party in its full sense) have a uniform view on the matter.
                            Your authorities can everything inside the country. Putin's United Russia party absolutely dominates across the whole system of power. As to ideology, there is no use denying that Kremlin actively supports Soviet propagandist concept of Great Patriotic War when it needs to accuse some other countries of rehabilitating Nazism. All the mainstream Russian political establishment and the state institutions are very uniformed and unanimous when it goes about their attitude historic questions in foreign countries.

                            Following official Russian WWII PR logic on the matter Medvedev should be accused of supporting nazism and collaborators after laying flowers to the monument of Nazi ally Mannerheim during official visit to Finland but of course nothing of the sort has happened that shows Kremlin double standards and the absence of any Russian public outlook different form the official one.
                            Last edited by Shamil; 29 May 09, 06:40.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by joea View Post
                              As an aside, how many of these people (collaborationist) were forced to fight to avoid starvation or worse treatment? I'm asking cause I read the same for many member's of Chandra Bose's army fighting the Brits in SE Asia, and the SS units made of Indian POWs.
                              All those who did not want to fight had plenty of opportunities to desert. They were not brought to the front-line in chains and did not have guards to watch after them. On the whole those who joined SS units or other combat formations underwent the same training as their German counterparts. For all I know there were no Ukrainian, Baltic, Croation, French, Scandinavian axis formations made up of POWs or prisoners forced to fight to avoid starvation or worse treatment.

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