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  • Arnold Meri - continuation

    «Эстонский народ в Великой Отечественной Войне Советского Союза 1941-45» – Таллин, 1973

    «….В этих условиях моторизованным группам автоматчиков противника на отдельных направлениях удавалось прорываться в тыл наших войск. 18 июля около полудня одна из таких групп подошла к месту расположения штаба 22-го стрелкового корпуса у Моглицы. Помощник начальника связи корпуса Арнольд Изотамм, командир штабной роты Эдуард Альт и капитан Лоог приступили к организации обороны силами оказавшихся на месте связистов 415-го отдельного батальона связи.
    Часть фашистов подошла непосредственно к штабу корпуса с юга, откуда их никто не ждал и где не было вырыто ни одного окопа. Организацию обороны с оказавшимися здесь бойцами радиороты взял на себя заместитель политрука роты Арнольд Мери. С горсткой бойцов он занял оборону южнее командного пункта штаба. Пальба приближалась, становясь все яростнее. Вначале противник стрелял вслепую, пули свистели где-то высоко над головами обороняющихся. Бойцы радиороты открыли меткий ответный огонь. Разгорелся ожесточенный бой. Огнем горстки отважных радистов противник был остановлен. Вскоре на помощь им прибыли другие бойцы и тоже включились в перестрелку.
    Гитлеровцы готовились к атаке. Фигуры в зеленых мундирах мелькали и на ржаном поле, и в кустарнике. Прошло не больше часа с начала боя, когда на открытую площадку перед оборонительными позициями выскочил фашистский офицер и скомандовал: «Третий батальон, в атаку!». Это был, конечно, психологический прием, рассчитанный на то, чтобы вызвать в рядах обороняющихся панику. Но маневр фашистам не удался. Бойцы под командованием Арнольда Мери встретили поднявшихся в атаку гитлеровцев плотным огнем. Многие фашисты упали, сраженные пулями, остальные поспешно откатились назад и скрылись во ржи и зарослях кустарника.
    Отзвуки отдельных боев доносились уже как с запада, так и с юга и юго-востока. А здесь продолжалась перестрелка. Видя, что с южной стороны к командному пункту штаба не пробиться, гитлеровцы стали небольшими группами заходить во фланги, стремясь создать видимость захвата обороняющихся в клещи, готовые сомкнуться в кольцо окружения. Прилегающую к штабу территорию фашисты яростно обстреливали из минометов малого калибра.
    Самое тяжелое положение создалось на участке обороны, которую занимали бойцы радиороты. Заместитель политрука роты А. Мери помогал малоопытным в боевых делах связистам выбирать удобные для ведения боя позиции, некоторых бойцов на ходу учил обращению с оружием. Когда стал иссякать запас патронов, пришлось самому идти за боеприпасами к штабной машине. Так, руководя боем на своем участке, постоянно передвигаясь с места на место , от бойца к бойцу, Арнольд Мери, проявляя исключительное мужество и отвагу, личным примером вдохновлял воинов. Осколком мины он был ранен в правую руку, но, несмотря на кровоточащую рану, продолжал действовать с неослабеваемой энергией, мужеством и находчивостью.
    Враг наседал, все более усиливая давление на защитников штаба. Под градом мин и непрерывным огнем фашистских автоматов редели ряды бойцов. Был тяжело ранен спешивший с группой бойцов на помощь радистам капитан Г. Лоог. Второй раз был ранен А. Мери – осколками мины в бедро и колено. Он истекал кровью, но не покидал поля боя.
    До позднего вечера на подступах к штабу корпуса все еще продолжалась ожесточенная перестрелка. Из радистов оставалось в строю 7-8 человек. Арнольд Мери еще раз поднялся, чтобы принести патронов и перевязочного материала. Дорогой отважный заместитель политрука был в третий раз ранен. Осколком мины задело легкие.
    Наконец, подоспела подмога. Прибывший из города Дно стрелковый батальон с ходу вступил в бой. Гитлеровцы не решались больше предпринимать какие-либо активные действия и стали поспешно отступать.
    Воины 415-го отдельного батальона связи успешно справились с необычной для них боевой задачей. План гитлеровцев выйти на шоссе Порхов - Дно и уничтожить штаб 22-го стрелкового корпуса был сорван. Враг потерял в этом бою десятки человек убитыми. Отличившиеся защитники штаба были представлены к награждению орденами и медалями. Арнольду Мери, первому среди воинов-эстонцев, Указом Президиума Верховного Совета СССР от 15 августа 1941 года было присвоено звание Героя Советского Союза. Когда вышел Указ, А. Мери еще находился на излечении в госпитале, в городе Кинешме Ивановской области, а в 22-м стрелковом корпусе имя его переходило из уст в уста, его знал теперь каждый воин, им гордились. Подвиг героя стал для бойцов и командиров образцом отваги и мужества, вдохновляющим примером, зовущим на бой с огнем…»

  • #2
    Arnold Meri - continuation (translated)

    “The Estonian People in the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union 1941-45.” Tallin, 1973.


    “... under these conditions, motorized groups of enemy machine-gunners succeeded in breaking into our rear positions in several directions. Around mid-day on July 18, one of these groups approached the headquarters of the 22nd Rifle Corps near Moglitsa. The Assistant Chief of Communications, Arnol'd Izotamm, the commander of the headquarters company, Eduard Al't and Captain Loog set down to organizing a defense, making use of the signalmen of the 415th Independent Signals Battalion, who happened to be in the area.
    Some of the fascists advanced directly upon the corps headquarters from the south, where no troops had been positioned and no trenches had been dug. The deputy political instructor of the radio company, Arnol'd Meri, took it upon himself to organize the defense, making use of the communications troops. With a handful of soldiers, he took up the defenses south of the command headquarters. The sound of gunfire became closer, becoming more intense. The enemy was shooting blindly at first, with the bullets whistling past over the heads of the defenders. The soldiers from the radio company responded with accurately laid down fire. A fierce firefight broke out and the enemy was stopped by the handful of brave radio operators. Soon after, other troops arrived on the scene in assistance and joined the fighting.
    Hitler's troops prepared for an attack. Figures in green uniforms were glimpsed working their way through the fields of rye and in the bush. No more than an hour had passed from the beginning of the battle, when a fascist officer lept to his feet in the midst of a clearing in front of our positions, and ordered: “Third battalion to the attack!”. This was, of course, a psychological ruse, designed to provoke panic in our ranks. This fascist maneuver, however, was unsuccessful. The troops under Arnol'd Meri's command met the fascist attack with dense fire. Many of the fascists fell, struck down by our bullets, while the rest scampered back into the rye fields and the thickets.
    The sound of isolated fighting reached us from the west, from the south and from the south-east, while the firefight at our position continued. Seeing that the attack upon the corps headquarters from the south was not making headway, Hitler's troops started to penetrate the flanks in small groups, trying to create the impression of cutting off the defenders. The fascists laid down heavy mortar fire on the area adjoining the headquarters.
    A serious situation emerged on the sector defended by the radio men. The deputy political instructor of the company, A. Meri, assisted the inexperienced signalmen in selecting convenient firing positions, teaching several of the soldiers how to use their weapons in the process. When the troops started to run out of cartridges, he had to go to the staff car for more ammunition. Thus, overseeing the battle on this sector, moving constantly from position to position and from soldier to soldier, Arnol'd Meri, displaying outstanding courage and bravery, was able to inspire the troops through personal example. Despite bleeding from a wound in his right hand, caused by a shell splinter, he continued to work with unflagging energy, courage and resourcefulness.
    The enemy continued to press on, putting more and more pressure upon the men defending the headquarters. Under a hail of mortars and fascist machine gun fire, the ranks of the defenders began to thin. Captain G. Loog was seriously wounded, while hurrying to lead a group of soldiers to assist the radio operators. A. Meri was wounded a second time, when shell splinters struck him in the knee and the hip. Although bleeding profusely, he remained on the battlefield.
    The furious fighting outside the corps headquarters continued until late in the evening. Only seven or eight radio operators still remained in the line. Arnol'd Meri went once more to bring back ammunition and field dressings. The dear brave deputy political instructor was wounded a third time – a shell splinter struck him in the lungs. Finally, help arrived from the town of Dno in the form of a rifle battalion, which immediately entered the battle. The fascists decided to suspend any further operations and beat a hasty retreat.
    The soldiers of the 415th Independent Signals Battalion had successfully coped with a military task they usually did not encounter. The fascist plan to reach the Porkhov-Dno road and destroy the 22nd Rifle Corps was defeated. The enemy had lost dozens of troops. For their distinguished conduct, the defenders of the corps headquarters were awarded with medals and decorations. On 15 August 1941, by decree of Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, Arnol'd Meri became the first Estonian soldier to be awarded Hero of the Soviet Union. When the order was issued, A. Meri was still located at a military hospital in the town of Kineshma, in Ivanovsk district, but his name passed through the ranks of the 22nd Rifle Corps. Every soldier now knew his name and responded with pride. The feats of this hero became a model of courage and bravery for the soldiers and commanders alike, an inspiring example to fight fire with fire...”
    Last edited by Skoblin; 30 Apr 09, 06:45.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you Andrey and Skoblin

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey, pp(est), what will you say about it?

        You rote earlier that Meri had not been mentioned in that book.

        I did spent 3 hours to visit the library and what I found there? I found that your words are LIE and Meri's story is described very well in the book.

        Comment


        • #5
          I want to thank skoblin for his translation.

          I corrected a little his version.

          “The Estonian People in the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union 1941-45.” Tallin, 1973.

          (translated by skoblin, corrected by Andrey)

          “... Under these conditions, motorized groups of enemy submachine-gunners succeeded in breaking into our rear positions in a few directions. Around mid-day on July 18, one of these groups approached the headquarters of the 22nd Rifle Corps near Moglitsa. The Assistant of the Chief of Communications of the Corps Arnol'd Izotamm, the commander of the headquarters company Eduard Al't and Captain Loog set down to organizing a defense, making use of the signalmen of the 415th Independent Signals Battalion, who happened to be in the area.

          Some of the fascists advanced directly upon the corps headquarters from the south, where they were not been expected and no trenches had been dug. The deputy of the political instructor of the radio company Arnol'd Meri took it upon himself to organize the defense, making use of the communications troops who were nearby. With a handful of soldiers, he took up the defenses south of the command post pf the headquarters. The sound of gunfire became closer, becoming more intense. The enemy was shooting blindly at first, with the bullets whistling past over the heads of the defenders. The soldiers of the radio company responded with accurately laid down fire. A fierce firefight broke out and the enemy was stopped by the fire of the handful of brave radio operators. Soon after, other troops arrived on the scene in assistance and joined the firefight.

          The Hitlerits prepared for an attack. Figures in green uniforms were glimpsed here and there in the field of rye and in the bush. No more than an hour had passed from the beginning of the battle, when a Fascist officer lept to his feet in the midst of a clearing in front of the defence positions, and ordered: “Third battalion to the attack!”. This was, of course, a psychological ruse, designed to provoke panic in the ranks of the defenders. This Fascist maneuver, however, was unsuccessful. The soldiers under Arnol'd Meri's command met the Fascist attack with dense fire. Many of the fascists fell, struck down by bullets, while the rest scampered back into the rye fields and the thickets.

          The sound of isolated fighting reached from the west, from the south and from the south-east, while the firefight continued here. Seeing that the attack upon the corps headquarters from the south was not making headway, the Hitlerits started to outflank in small groups, trying to create the impression of making claws, which were ready to connect each other and to encircle the defenders. The fascists laid down fierce fire from light mortars on the area adjoining the headquarters.

          The most serious situation emerged on the sector defended by the radio men. The deputy of the political instructor of the company A. Meri assisted his signalmen, which were inexperienced in infantry combat, in selecting convenient firing positions, teaching some of the soldiers how to use their weapons in the process. When the troops started to run out of cartridges, he had to go to the staff car for more ammunition. Thus, commanding the battle on his sector, moving constantly from position to position and from soldier to soldier, Arnol'd Meri, displaying outstanding courage and bravery, was able to inspire the troops through personal example. A splinter of a mortar-shell wounded him but despite bleeding from a wound in his right hand he continued to operate with unflagging energy, courage and resourcefulness.

          The enemy continued to press on, putting more and more pressure upon the men defending the headquarters. Under a hail of mortar shells and Fascist submachine guns fire, the ranks of the defenders began to thin. Captain G. Loog was seriously wounded, while hurrying to lead a group of soldiers to reinforce the radio operators. A. Meri was seriously wounded a second time, when splinters of a mortar shell struck him in his knee and his hip. Although bleeding profusely, he remained on the battlefield.

          The furious fighting in the approaches to the corps headquarters continued until late in the evening. Only seven or eight of the radio operators still remained in the line. Arnol'd Meri went once more to bring back ammunition and field dressings. The dear brave deputy of the political instructor was wounded a third time – a mortar shell splinter struck him in his lungs.

          Finally, help arrived from the town of Dno in the form of a rifle battalion, which immediately entered the battle. The Fascists decided to suspend any further operations and beat a hasty retreat.

          Soldiers of the 415th Independent Signals Battalion had successfully coped with the military task which was unusual to them. The Fascist plan to reach the Porkhov-Dno motor road and to destroy the headquarters of the 22nd Rifle Corps was failed. The enemy had lost dozens of troops. The defenders of the corps headquarters who distinguished themselves during the battle were awarded with medals and decorations. On 15 August 1941, by a Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR Arnol'd Meri became the first soldier-Estonian who was awarded by the rank a Hero of the Soviet Union. When the Decree was issued, A. Meri was still located at a military hospital in the town of Kineshma, in the Ivanovo Region, and his name passed through the ranks of the 22nd Rifle Corps. Every soldier of the corps knew his name after that and was proud of him. For the soldiers and commanders the feat of arms of this hero became a model of courage and bravery, an inspiring example to fight fire with fire...”
          Last edited by Andrey; 04 May 09, 00:32.

          Comment


          • #6
            A few things Andrey,

            1. You are correct that автоматчиков should have read "sub-machine guns" instead of "machine guns"

            2. Although the original text says Гитлеровцы or "Hitlerites", this is a cumbersome word in English and is never used. Hence I said "Hitler's troops".

            3. The phrase Отзвуки отдельных боев uses plural noun forms, but it is correctly translated into English as a non-plural phrase: "The sound of isolated fighting" rather than "The sounds of isolated fightings." "Fighting" is never used plurally in English.

            3. The Russian text перевязочный материал does indeed translate directly as "bandaging material" but in English military terminology, this would be "field dressings".

            4. For the last phrase зовущим на бой с огнем, I used - "to fight fire with fire" - which is not a literal translation of the Russian text, but it is a commonly-used phrase in English which captures the spirit of what is being conveyed in the original Russian.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by skoblin View Post
              A few things Andrey,

              1. You are correct that автоматчиков should have read "sub-machine guns" instead of "machine guns"

              2. Although the original text says Гитлеровцы or "Hitlerites", this is a cumbersome word in English and is never used. Hence I said "Hitler's troops".

              3. The phrase Отзвуки отдельных боев uses plural noun forms, but it is correctly translated into English as a non-plural phrase: "The sound of isolated fighting" rather than "The sounds of isolated fightings." "Fighting" is never used plurally in English.

              3. The Russian text перевязочный материал does indeed translate directly as "bandaging material" but in English military terminology, this would be "field dressings".

              4. For the last phrase зовущим на бой с огнем, I used - "to fight fire with fire" - which is not a literal translation of the Russian text, but it is a commonly-used phrase in English which captures the spirit of what is being conveyed in the original Russian.
              Points 3, 4, 5 - I have corrected my version.

              Point 2 - Let's they get used to the Russian term. Maybe, it is a cumbersome word but it gives the spirit of initial Russian text.

              And what you wrote is not all the corrections. It is about 5-10 % of all of my corrections...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                And what you wrote is not all the corrections. It is about 5-10 % of all of my corrections...
                Did you want me to go through all of them?

                Fine.

                Paragraph 1.
                1. I stated "in several directions." You corrected it by saying "in a few directions." I stand by my version as being more correct in English.

                2. I left out "corps" in the description of Arnold Izotamm's rank.

                Paragraph 2
                1. I interpreted the phrase откуда их никто не ждал [lit. from where no one was expected] as "where no troops had been positioned." I took this as the implied meaning of the text which is clearly supported.

                2. I left out the phrase "who were nearby" in the next sentence, in describing the communications troops, as the previous paragraph already stated they were in the area.

                3. Next sentence, I said "command headquarters", you stated "command post of the headquarters." I see nothing wrong with my translation other than using less words to say the same thing.

                4. Next sentence, I stated "the enemy was stopped by the handful of brave radio operators." You stated, "the enemy was stopped by the fire of the handful of brave radio operators." It is already understood that the radio operators were laying down fire. Is it necessary to specify that it was "fire" that stopped the Germans? I think not. I stand by my translation.

                5. Last sentence, I stated that other troops "joined the fighting". You say "joined the firefight." How is this a correction?

                Paragraph 3
                1. I stated, "Figures in green uniforms were glimpsed working their way through the fields of rye and in the bush." The actual text word for word states, "Figures in green uniforms were glimpsed here and there in the field of rye and in the bush." I added "working their way through" for stylistic purposes as they were obviously not just sitting or standing in the bush, but preparing for an attack - as stated in the previous sentence.

                2. "in front of our positions" instead of saying "in front of the defence positions." I added "our" for the sake of colour and left out "defence" as it was redundant.

                3. Ditto: "designed to provoke panic in our ranks" instead of saying "designed to provoke panic in the ranks of the defenders." Adding "defenders" was redundant.

                4.I said "troops", you said "soldiers". Are troops not soldiers?

                Paragraph 4.
                1. I stated "while the firefight at our position continued." You have it as "while the firefight continued here." Again, I added "our" in an effort to make the translated text not so so stilted. Otherwise, the same thing.

                2. "Hitler's troops started to penetrate the flanks in small groups" versus "the Hitlerits started to outflank in small groups". If they are outflanking then they are penetrating the flanks.

                3. "trying to create the impression of cutting off the defenders" versus your version "trying to create the impression of making claws, which were ready to connect each other and to encircle the defenders." Your translation, while literal, is overly complicated in English. I stand by my translation. Plus the term in English in "pincers" not "claws".

                4. "The fascists laid down heavy mortar fire" versus your "The fascists laid down fierce fire from light mortars". Again, I stand by my translation - "heavy" instead of "fierce" and leaving out "light" as being redundant as we are discussing German infantry - not an artillery regiment.

                Paragraph 5
                1. I left out "most" from "a serious situation emerged in the sector of the radio men."

                2. I stated "The deputy political instructor of the company..." You stated "The deputy of the political instructor of the company..." These say the same thing, except yours sounds overly convoluted in English.

                3. I stated "A. Meri, assisted the inexperienced signalmen" as opposed to your "A. Meri assisted his signalmen, which were inexperienced in infantry combat..." There is no need to continue with such a long rendering of the Russian. It is obvious that it was combat experience that they lacked.

                4. "overseeing the battle on this sector" versus "commanding the battle on this sector". No difference.

                5. My translation "Despite bleeding from a wound in his right hand, caused by a shell splinter, he continued to work with unflagging energy, courage and resourcefulness." sounds smoother in English than the original Russian syntax "A splinter of a mortar-shell wounded him but despite bleeding from a wound in his right hand he continued to operate with unflagging energy, courage and resourcefulness."

                Paragraph 6
                1. "while hurrying to lead a group of soldiers to assist the radio operators" and you state "while hurrying to lead a group of soldiers to reinforce the radio operators". Same meaning in this context.

                2. "when shell splinters struck him" versus "when splinters of a mortar shell struck him". As there has been no indication of any other ordnance being used, specifying "mortar" was redundant.

                Final Paragraph
                1. "successfully coped with a military task they usually did not encounter" versus "successfully coped with the military task which was unusual to them." Is there a difference here?

                2. I said "road" instead of the more specific "motor road"

                3. Your translation "was failed" is incorrect in English. It is as I stated "was defeated."

                4. "For their distinguished conduct, the defenders of the corps headquarters were awarded with medals and decorations." versus "The defenders of the corps headquarters who distinguished themselves during the battle were awarded with medals and decorations." My version uses less words and says the same thing.

                5. "Arnol'd Meri became the first Estonian soldier to be awarded Hero of the Soviet Union" versus your "Arnol'd Meri became the first soldier-Estonian who was awarded by the rank a Hero of the Soviet Union". First off, the correct translation is "Estonian soldier". Second "Hero of the Soviet Union" is not translated as a rank in English

                6. "The feats of this hero became a model of courage and bravery for the soldiers and commanders alike" versus your "For the soldiers and commanders the feat of arms of this hero became a model of courage and bravery" Other than saying the same thing, my translation sounds smoother in English.


                You know, I don't mind someone correcting errors I may have made in translating, if they are - in fact - serious errors that misconstrue the meaning of the original text. Other than saying "machine guns" instead "sub-machine guns" and "road" instead of "motor road", I don't see how any of the corrections you pointed out were warranted. In fact, several of them made the English text more difficult to read. Russian cannot be translated word for word into English. One has to be aware of the flow of English text in order to produce a readable translation that English speakers will not find stilted, wooden or awkward. More irritating is having to defend one's original translation when it was done in a matter of 15 minutes and was not intended to be a publishable document, especially when some of the "corrections" made turned out to be incorrect - such as "bandaging material" instead of the original "field dressings" as I had stated.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by skoblin View Post
                  You know, I don't mind someone correcting errors I may have made in translating, if they are - in fact - serious errors that misconstrue the meaning of the original text. Other than saying "machine guns" instead "sub-machine guns" and "road" instead of "motor road", I don't see how any of the corrections you pointed out were warranted. In fact, several of them made the English text more difficult to read. Russian cannot be translated word for word into English. One has to be aware of the flow of English text in order to produce a readable translation that English speakers will not find stilted, wooden or awkward. More irritating is having to defend one's original translation when it was done in a matter of 15 minutes and was not intended to be a publishable document, especially when some of the "corrections" made turned out to be incorrect - such as "bandaging material" instead of the original "field dressings" as I had stated.
                  Being a part-time translator/interpreter myself, I can only attest to the truth of these words.
                  www.histours.ru

                  Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'd have to agree with Skoblin. His translation is very well done and intended for a Western audience. There will always be a debate between direct translations and translations that take into account, in this case, equivalent English phrases/descriptions. In this case, substituting one phrase for another, by someone who is comfortable with the English language, is the way I'd approach this translation.
                    "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                    "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                    "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by skoblin View Post
                      You know, I don't mind someone correcting errors I may have made in translating, if they are - in fact - serious errors that misconstrue the meaning of the original text. Other than saying "machine guns" instead "sub-machine guns" and "road" instead of "motor road", I don't see how any of the corrections you pointed out were warranted. In fact, several of them made the English text more difficult to read. Russian cannot be translated word for word into English. One has to be aware of the flow of English text in order to produce a readable translation that English speakers will not find stilted, wooden or awkward. More irritating is having to defend one's original translation when it was done in a matter of 15 minutes and was not intended to be a publishable document, especially when some of the "corrections" made turned out to be incorrect - such as "bandaging material" instead of the original "field dressings" as I had stated.
                      1. It is a very dangerous way - to change words how you want.

                      How can you be 100% sure what is imortant and what is not?

                      2. "Motor road" and "road" is not the same. Their Russian equavalents are шоссе и дорога.

                      Usually шоссе is a strategic object while дорога can be unsignificant line of clear land in a field.

                      So to cut off "шоссе" and "дорога" can differ in the scale.

                      3. "machine guns" instead "sub-machine guns"...

                      Do you suppose it is the same?????

                      "Submachine gun" is a light infantry weapon while "machine gun" is a heavy infantry weapon.

                      Enemy equipped with submachine guns is not the same as enemy equipped with machine guns.

                      4. Light mortar is not the same as mortar.

                      If the author wrote легкий миномет, so it means light mortar and not mortar.

                      etc...

                      so I suppose it is necessary to try to follow the initial russian words to avoid distortions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                        2. "Motor road" and "road" is not the same. Their Russian equavalents are шоссе и дорога.

                        Usually шоссе is a strategic object while дорога can be unsignificant line of clear land in a field.

                        So to cut off "шоссе" and "дорога" can differ in the scale.

                        3. "machine guns" instead "sub-machine guns"...

                        Do you suppose it is the same?????

                        "Submachine gun" is a light infantry weapon while "machine gun" is a heavy infantry weapon.

                        Enemy equipped with submachine guns is not the same as enemy equipped with machine guns.
                        But Skoblin has already recognised his mistakes in these translations:

                        Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                        Other than saying "machine guns" instead "sub-machine guns" and "road" instead of "motor road", I don't see how any of the corrections you pointed out were warranted. In fact, several of them made the English text more difficult to read. Russian cannot be translated word for word into English.
                        Andrey, there are 2 options - to fill your text with all the tiny details and cumbersome grammar construstion that you want, making your text absolutely unreadable by the Western audience or to omit a few completely insignificant things from the translation, but convey the gist of your text with maximum possible precision. I think choosing the first option is obvious.

                        I know how things are done at Russian forums, where people would argue for months about the size of stroibat captain's shoulderboards of Uryupinsk mechanised brigade in 1955, but let the people at this forum get the main idea of this text without overburdening it with trifling details. Seriously, no one cares here if it's дорога or шоссе or whatever.
                        www.histours.ru

                        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Very true, Andrey...and I took note of these - sub-machine gun and motor road. But reckon on the fact also that in English "machine gun" and "road" both tend to be used rather flexibly. In addition, interesting to point out, was was referred to as a "sub-machine gun" was very likely an German MP40 or its equivalent which is actually a "machine pistol" - at least according to Germans. Also, in English, when one says "mortar" it is generally interpreted as being a "light mortar."

                          It is a difficult question - whether to adhere word for word to a text or to translate with some degree of flexibility. The important thing is whether the original meaning is lost on the intended target. I do not believe that happened here....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by skoblin View Post
                            Did you want me to go through all of them?

                            Fine.

                            Paragraph 1.
                            1. I stated "in several directions." You corrected it by saying "in a few directions." I stand by my version as being more correct in English.
                            Maybe. I didn't use "several" often.


                            2. I left out "corps" in the description of Arnold Izotamm's rank.
                            Why to leave out "corps"?

                            You forgot to mention commas...

                            Paragraph 2
                            1. I interpreted the phrase откуда их никто не ждал [lit. from where no one was expected] as "where no troops had been positioned." I took this as the implied meaning of the text which is clearly supported.
                            it is not the same. what if there were troops positioned there but those troops didn't expect the enemy attack?

                            My meaning - the enemy was not expected there but it is unknown were there troops or not.

                            Your meaning - there were no positioned troops there

                            Do you think it is the same?

                            2. I left out the phrase "who were nearby" in the next sentence, in describing the communications troops, as the previous paragraph already stated they were in the area.
                            From you description it is not clear from where were those soldiers - they could be there or to arrive from somewhere.


                            3. Next sentence, I said "command headquarters", you stated "command post of the headquarters." I see nothing wrong with my translation other than using less words to say the same thing.
                            I don't understand the phrase "command headquarters". I do understand "command post" as командный пункт.

                            4. Next sentence, I stated "the enemy was stopped by the handful of brave radio operators." You stated, "the enemy was stopped by the fire of the handful of brave radio operators." It is already understood that the radio operators were laying down fire. Is it necessary to specify that it was "fire" that stopped the Germans? I think not. I stand by my translation.
                            "to stop by the fire" means to stop with shooting only.

                            "to stop" can mean to stop with shooting or with grenades or with bayonets (in a close combat) or with something other

                            If the author wrote остановить огнем it means "to stop by fire". If he wanted to write Russian analogue "to stop" he would write "остановить".

                            5. Last sentence, I stated that other troops "joined the fighting". You
                            say "joined the firefight." How is this a correction?
                            Fignting can be firefight or a close combat or someting else.

                            Fiefight means app. long range fight using rifles and submachine gun fire.

                            It is not the same.

                            Paragraph 3
                            1. I stated, "Figures in green uniforms were glimpsed working their way through the fields of rye and in the bush." The actual text word for word states, "Figures in green uniforms were glimpsed here and there in the field of rye and in the bush." I added "working their way through" for stylistic purposes as they were obviously not just sitting or standing in the bush, but preparing for an attack - as stated in the previous sentence.
                            "working their way" - I don't know such phrase. I suppose it means "to move through".

                            in this text enemy didn't move ahead, they were seen for a few seconds there and here and then again were hided in rye. Here is the meaning of the russian text.

                            2. "in front of our positions" instead of saying "in front of the defence positions." I added "our" for the sake of colour and left out "defence" as it was redundant.
                            the author uses neutral position in the text - he didn't use words "our" ("наши") which could mean he is a Soviet. the article is written in a neutral style.

                            In Russian he could easily write перед нашими позициями but he wrote перед позициями оборонящихся. why? ask him.

                            I preffer to leave the author's style.

                            3. Ditto: "designed to provoke panic in our ranks" instead of saying "designed to provoke panic in the ranks of the defenders." Adding "defenders" was redundant.
                            see above

                            4.I said "troops", you said "soldiers". Are troops not soldiers?
                            in Russian troops = войска.

                            it is more large than a few soldiers.

                            I suppose soldiers is better both in Russian and English.

                            I try to avoid any distortion.

                            Paragraph 4.
                            1. I stated "while the firefight at our position continued." You have it as "while the firefight continued here." Again, I added "our" in an effort to make the translated text not so so stilted. Otherwise, the same thing.
                            see two points above

                            2. "Hitler's troops started to penetrate the flanks in small groups" versus "the Hitlerits started to outflank in small groups". If they are outflanking then they are penetrating the flanks.
                            penetrate - means проникать, просачиваться.

                            how I understand to penetrate means to move through resistance.

                            while to outflank means to move along flanks independently from resistance.

                            And to penetrate means close contact with enemy at result while to outflank doesn't consdider close or far contact.

                            3. "trying to create the impression of cutting off the defenders" versus your version "trying to create the impression of making claws, which were ready to connect each other and to encircle the defenders." Your translation, while literal, is overly complicated in English. I stand by my translation. Plus the term in English in "pincers" not "claws".
                            they created the impression of POSSIBLE cut off (two pincers which COULD to cut off in future)

                            it is not the same as the impression of cutting off (the fact which is finished)

                            do you see the difference?

                            4. "The fascists laid down heavy mortar fire" versus your "The fascists laid down fierce fire from light mortars". Again, I stand by my translation - "heavy" instead of "fierce" and leaving out "light" as being redundant as we are discussing German infantry - not an artillery regiment.
                            ok

                            "The fascists laid down heavy fire from light mortars"

                            but it is necessary to use the term of light mortars here.

                            why light mortars? ask the author. He could write огонь из минометов but he wrote огонь из легких минометов.

                            so it is necesary to use his terms.

                            Paragraph 5
                            1. I left out "most" from "a serious situation emerged in the sector of the radio men."
                            Why? A serious situation is not the same as the most serious situation

                            2. I stated "The deputy political instructor of the company..." You stated "The deputy of the political instructor of the company..." These say the same thing, except yours sounds overly convoluted in English.
                            maybe

                            3. I stated "A. Meri, assisted the inexperienced signalmen" as opposed to your "A. Meri assisted his signalmen, which were inexperienced in infantry combat..." There is no need to continue with such a long rendering of the Russian. It is obvious that it was combat experience that they lacked.
                            The author wrote малоопытным в боевых делах and not малоопытным.

                            It is not the same.

                            The author's idea is that the signalmen were inexperienced in infantry combat but yoiur idea is that the signalmen were inexperienced AT ALL.

                            Do you see the difference?

                            4. "overseeing the battle on this sector" versus "commanding the battle on this sector". No difference.
                            I am not familiar with the word of "to oversee".

                            I was afraid of possible distrortion.

                            "to command" describes everything 100% clear

                            5. My translation "Despite bleeding from a wound in his right hand, caused by a shell splinter, he continued to work with unflagging energy, courage and resourcefulness." sounds smoother in English than the original Russian syntax "A splinter of a mortar-shell wounded him but despite bleeding from a wound in his right hand he continued to operate with unflagging energy, courage and resourcefulness."
                            The russian meaning is that he was wounded a splinter, and right after that he began to lose blood but continued to fight.

                            How I understand your text it is unclearly from it when he was wounded.

                            And shell means снаряд, while mortar shel means минометная мина.

                            It is not the same.

                            Paragraph 6
                            1. "while hurrying to lead a group of soldiers to assist the radio operators" and you state "while hurrying to lead a group of soldiers to reinforce the radio operators". Same meaning in this context.
                            I know the term of reinforce which is 100% good for this case in its meaning.

                            2. "when shell splinters struck him" versus "when splinters of a mortar shell struck him". As there has been no indication of any other ordnance being used, specifying "mortar" was redundant.
                            shell means снаряд, while mortar shel means минометная мина

                            Author wrotes clearly about мина [минометная]

                            Final Paragraph
                            1. "successfully coped with a military task they usually did not encounter" versus "successfully coped with the military task which was unusual to them." Is there a difference here?
                            The author uses the term of необычный. I suppose unusual is word-to-word correct.

                            2. I said "road" instead of the more specific "motor road"
                            see the message before.

                            3. Your translation "was failed" is incorrect in English. It is as I stated "was defeated."
                            maybe simply "failed"

                            4. "For their distinguished conduct, the defenders of the corps headquarters were awarded with medals and decorations." versus "The defenders of the corps headquarters who distinguished themselves during the battle were awarded with medals and decorations." My version uses less words and says the same thing.
                            From your translation it looks like ALL the defenders were awarded. It is incorrect.

                            Only a few of them were awarded - the soldiers who distinguished themselves during the battle.

                            dop you see the difference?

                            5. "Arnol'd Meri became the first Estonian soldier to be awarded Hero of the Soviet Union" versus your "Arnol'd Meri became the first soldier-Estonian who was awarded by the rank a Hero of the Soviet Union". First off, the correct translation is "Estonian soldier". Second "Hero of the Soviet Union" is not translated as a rank in English
                            1. I don't know

                            2. Hero of the Soviet Union is a rank and not a medal or a decoration.

                            6. "The feats of this hero became a model of courage and bravery for the soldiers and commanders alike" versus your "For the soldiers and commanders the feat of arms of this hero became a model of courage and bravery" Other than saying the same thing, my translation sounds smoother in English.
                            You forgot to mention the second part of the sentence.

                            I changed the order of words to add the second part of the sentence.

                            "For the soldiers and commanders the feat of arms of this hero became a model of courage and bravery, an inspiring example to fight fire with fire"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by skoblin View Post
                              Very true, Andrey...and I took note of these - sub-machine gun and motor road. But reckon on the fact also that in English "machine gun" and "road" both tend to be used rather flexibly. In addition, interesting to point out, was was referred to as a "sub-machine gun" was very likely an German MP40 or its equivalent which is actually a "machine pistol" - at least according to Germans. Also, in English, when one says "mortar" it is generally interpreted as being a "light mortar."

                              It is a difficult question - whether to adhere word for word to a text or to translate with some degree of flexibility. The important thing is whether the original meaning is lost on the intended target. I do not believe that happened here....
                              yes, sub-machine guns are MP-38 or Mp-40 (both are called "Shmeisser" in Russian) here. So what? It is clearly that neither Mp-38 nor MP-40 are machine guns but only a light weapon with pistol bullets.

                              I don't think to add "light" before "mortar" will turn the sentence into an unreadable cumbersome grammar construstion.

                              what you wrote is correct to Russian also

                              the author could easily write дорога Порхов-Дно instead of шоссе Порхов-Дно or миномет instead of легкий миномет. In russian миномет usually means легкий миномет.

                              But he didn't do it so probably he had some reasons for it.

                              So the best way in translation to pass all the original authors ideas is to preserve all his small details.

                              My texts are cumbersome as I live in Russia and my english is bad. It is not because I try to save all those details.

                              I am 100% sure it is possible to make excellent readable constructions without losing of details and without distortions.
                              Last edited by Andrey; 04 May 09, 04:38.

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