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Any good books on soviet logistics and lend lease role?

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  • Any good books on soviet logistics and lend lease role?

    I am doing an essay for my Russian and WWII class and my essay is essentially going to argue that lend lease allowed the Russian army to implement its deep thrust doctrine as early as it did because the Soviet War Machine was so heavily supported by lend-lease trucks and transport to supply the army.

    Anyways any books anyone can recommend that explore this in great detail including possible how the trucks were distributed and used?

  • #2
    Here is the numeber of trucks in RKKA in thousands.
    Legend:
    yellow - Lend-Lease trucks
    pinkish - Soviet made trucks

    http://pics.livejournal.com/fat_yankey/pic/00053ebe


    This one is the distribution of new trucks delivered to RKKA.
    the graph is in %. The table is the number of trucks per producer in thousands.
    Legend:
    brownish - captured German trucks
    yellow - Lend-Lease trucks
    pinkish - Soviet made trucks

    http://pics.livejournal.com/fat_yankey/pic/00052rzw

    source in Russian: http://fat-yankey.livejournal.com/32078.html
    Last edited by Egorka; 03 Mar 09, 02:52.
    Kind regards
    Igor

    * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
    * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
    * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by wokelly View Post
      I am doing an essay for my Russian and WWII class and my essay is essentially going to argue that lend lease allowed the Russian army to implement its deep thrust doctrine as early as it did because the Soviet War Machine was so heavily supported by lend-lease trucks and transport to supply the army.
      How early is "as early"?
      Kind regards
      Igor

      * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
      * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
      * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Egorka View Post
        How early is "as early"?
        Depends, I dont know much about soviet deep thrust strategy, hence the reason I want book recomendations. All I knew was that quite a large number of trucks moving soviet supplies were lend lease supplied. Have a fair ammount to learn about it, but it was a topic the proff would allow. I am thinking 1944 though, Bagration really being the most epic example of soviet doctrine being put into effect I can think of. Again it depends on what I read in my sources.

        Comment


        • #5
          How can you draw a conclusion and then write an essay to back it up? What you need to do is propose a hypothesis and then investigate the evidence to see if it supports the premise.

          Deep Battle evolved over time. You can see the seeds of what it would become being used for the first time during operation Uranus in November, 1942. Furthermore, your premise is flawed as it was not simply the addition of US trucks that helped in the implementation of Deep Battle. The topic is complex and you should begin by reading some Glantz's works such as "Stumbling Colosssus", "Colossus Reborn" and "From the Don to The Dnepr". These are easily available and will give you a good grounding in the Red Army method. Walter S Dunn wrote, "Soviet Blitzkrieg, The Battle for White Russia, 1944" and Paul Adair wrote, "Hitler's Greatest Defeat, The Collapse of Army Group Centre, June 1944". All of these will show you that Deep Battle was an operational art and that it was not solely dependant on lend-lease trucks (although they didn't hurt).

          If you digest these texts you will not find what you are looking for. The facts will simply not support your conclusion. In short, the trucks assisted with logistics but were not the magic bullet that permitted advances of as much 500 km (Bagration, for example)

          Sorry,... but there it is.
          Last edited by The Purist; 03 Mar 09, 22:15.
          The Purist

          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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          • #6
            Nothing wrong with thinking up an idea. If its not correct then I wont argue it. I do have those Glantz books on order from the library and will start reading them as soon as they arrive.

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            • #7
              The best studies of the development of the 'Deep Strike' doctrine in English are two books by David Glantz:

              "Soviet Military Operational Art: In Pursuit of Deep Battle"
              ISBN: 0 7146 4077 8 (Frank Cass, 1991)

              "The Soviet Conduct of Tactical Maneuver: Spearhead of the Offensive"
              ISBN: 0 7146 4079 4 (Frank Cass, 1991)

              The first covers the basic Deep Strike doctrine as it developed before, during and after WWII, the second covers the development of the Forward Detachment as the maneuver element responsible for developing the deep strikes on a tactical-operational level.
              There have been some older studies in English on Lend Lease, like "Feeding the Bear", but I don't know of any recent studies of Lend Lease and its effects from the Russian military historical establishment. Perhaps one of our Russian forum-mates knows of a title, but all I've seen are some articles and brief studies on Lend Lease tanks and armor in front-line service.
              While I wouldn't go so far as to say that Lend Lease trucks and vehicles were 'required' to make Deep Strikes work, I find it illuminating that the first really successful operational-strategic deep strikes took place after the end of 1943, when the number of Lend Lease trucks arriving in the USSR had reached the 6-figure level, and the Germans were noting that virtually all the Soviet antitank and non-divisional artillery units were motorized with US 4 and 6-wheel drive vehicles, giving them exceptional mobility. One Wehrmacht staff officer at the end of 1943 went so far as to state that "-panzer counterattacks don't work any more!" because the antitank regiments and brigades could now keep up with the spearheads even in the muddy season, so that the panzers could not catch Soviet infantry without accompanying antitank guns any more.
              While Bagratian's success owed a lot to massive force structure inequities, new Soviet air supremacy, and Hitler's absolute hamstringing of German operational and tactical reactions, it's hard to see how the offensive could have been carried as far as it was without the large logistic tail of new (first formed in autumn 1943) truck brigades and regiments to carry supplies and even entire rifle divisions forward - truck units which coincided with massive deliveries of Lend Lease vehicles. L'vov-Sandomir is an even better example of Deep Strike, and the Vistula-Oder Offensive in January 1945 is probably the peak of Deep Strike operations in Europe: all the way from Warsaw to just short of Berlin without stopping during weather much worse for mobility than the summer of 1944...

              Comment


              • #8
                It seems

                We might need some kind of comparison figures for Russian transport for Bagrqation and beyond. Then we might all be able to draw some further conclusions on how much the LL effected the "deep thrust" doctrine.

                Cheers, anyone happen to have something like this hady somewhere by chance?

                Tom

                Comment


                • #9
                  Outstanding recommendations, gents.

                  Wokelly, Gerry and Charles know their stuff, and have given you the best of the best with their suggestions. Would that I had such knowledgeable mentors when I wrote such papers . . . I am envious.

                  And Egorka -- otkuda such outstanding information? Wonderful help, bolshoi tebe spasibo.

                  You might also be interested in Oliver's site:
                  http://www.o5m6.de/main.html

                  He has a wonderful talent for illustration, and has readily accessible information on Lend-Lease shipments to the USSR fom the USA and UK, drawn from western source documents.

                  As for the topic, there is nothing wrong with an essay that disproves a myth, and there are many myths about the Great Patriotic War. Do your reading, and inspiration will come. You prof, if he's worth his salt, will agree if he sees you actively developing a thesis.

                  Regards from Calgary
                  Scott Fraser
                  Last edited by Scott Fraser; 04 Mar 09, 00:10.
                  Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                  A contentedly cantankerous old fart

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
                    And Egorka -- otkuda such outstanding information? Wonderful help, bolshoi tebe spasibo.
                    The data is from the blog of Igor Kortukov (aka Fat-yankey): http://fat-yankey.livejournal.com/32078.html
                    He is a well known free-time historian and has good reputation.
                    Kind regards
                    Igor

                    * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                    * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                    * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for the suggestions, some more books on order now from my library. Lend lease is a possibility, the guy wanted a possible topic from us before we started to reserach so I threw lend lease out there because I knew a huge number of US trucks were shipped over and used. If I find a better topic I will use that one. Have a good 2.5 weeks to read and write this essay after my Canadian military history essay is due, so I look forward to diving into this area that I frankly dont know a lot about (I mean the deep thrust doctrine).

                      EDIT: Sorry Egorka I forgot to thank you for those graphs. Was really interesting seeing the minority of trucks being US, but an out of proportion amount being used to supply the army. I guess the Red Army didnt need the truck but they sure seemed to feel they were really good, probably the fact they were so rugged from what little I have read.
                      Last edited by wokelly; 04 Mar 09, 13:45.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wokelly View Post
                        EDIT: Sorry Egorka I forgot to thank you for those graphs.
                        You are welcome.
                        Was really interesting seeing the minority of trucks being US, but an out of proportion amount being used to supply the army. I guess the Red Army didnt need the truck but they sure seemed to feel they were really good, probably the fact they were so rugged from what little I have read.
                        I did not quite get your point here...
                        The LL trucks were considered to be very good and were very appreciated by the troops.
                        The RKKA obviously needed them considering that those were practically free trucks.

                        App. numbers of Soviet trucks production:
                        1940 - 145.000
                        1941 - 124.000 (78.000 before June. 46.000 after June)
                        1942 - 32.000
                        1943 - 46.000
                        1944 - 57.000
                        1945 - 21.000 (until May)

                        Soviet production June 1941 - May 1945: 205.000 trucks. 150.400 of them were delivered to RKKA, the rest to the civil sector.
                        Appart from that RKKA had 270.000 at the start of the war in June 1941.

                        Here is the RKKA truck losses VS. new deliveries for the whole war:
                        Legend:
                        brown - losses.
                        pinkish - Soviet made
                        greenish - German captured
                        yellowish - Lend-Lease
                        http://pics.livejournal.com/fat_yankey/pic/00056f9y
                        Kind regards
                        Igor

                        * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                        * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                        * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Perfect Egorka

                          Now we are getting somewhere with this, interesting stats if I may say so!!

                          Cheers

                          Tom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A few things about the use of Lend Lease trucks...
                            First, the tables of organization for the antitank artillery brigades and regiments formed in 1943 specified the use of Lend Lease 'Willys' (1/4 ton jeeps) 'Dodzhe' (3/4 ton Dodge) and 'Studebekker' (2.5 ton 6x6 Studebaker) trucks. Since all of these trucks were at least 4-wheel drive (the 2.5 ton 6x6 meant that all 6 wheels on 3 axles were driven) they had much better mobility than the majority of either Russian or German trucks. In fact, the Studebaker could go through mud that would stop any other vehicle that wasn't tracked! 76.2mm ZIS-3 and USV guns in antitank regiments towed by Studebakers were, from mid-1943 on, right up front with even the most advanced spearheads or bridgeheads, and the German panzer officers, at least, began to notice it before the end of 1943.
                            Second, while it isn't impossible, it is very hard to find a photograph of a Soviet army, or tank or mechanized corps commander in a vehicle other than a Lend Lease 4x4 jeep after the end of 1942.
                            Third, not only the antitank regiments, but later in the war several other support units were specifically designed to use Lend Lease trucks. In the Guards Rocket units, the mobile Heavy Rocket (M30) units on trucks were all mounted on Studebakers - each one firing 12 200mm rockets in a single salvo. The Mountain Guards Mortar (M8) and Mountain Mortar (107mm) regiments went from horse drawn or packed to 4x4 jeep mountings.
                            Finally, the US sent enough amphibious DUKW trucks that the Red Army organized several Special Truck Battalions, numbered in the 200 series, to provide an amphibious 'lift' to forward units. They were used in river crossings of the Vistula, Elbe, and Oder Rivers in 1944-45, and by the forces advancing along the Arctic coast to make short-range amphibious landings behind retreating Germans and cross fiords in far northern Norway. This capability would have been impossible without the Lend Lease DUKWs, since neither Russian nor Germany (from which they might have been captured) manufactured amphibious cargo-carrying vehicles in any quantity at all, either during or before the war.

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                            • #15
                              I'd recommend the book "The Russian way of War" by Harrison if you're interested in operational art (deep battle, etc).
                              "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                              "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                              "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. Voltaire

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