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Review: The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    I have got the book. You distort his words.
    He clearly claimed that Mech Corps were lost in vain. The only result was the elimination of the bulk of the Soviet tank forces in Ukraine. The commissar and the member of the miliatry council of S-W front Vashugin even committed suicide when he learnt about the results of the mentioned battle on the 28th of June.

    The Baltic direction was as secondary as Ukrainian.

    The difference is that in the Ukraine Zhukov organized a powerful counterattack by Mech Corps but nothing like this was done in the Baltic.

    ZHUKOV did it!!!! The name speaks itself that it is wrong to call those actions as stupid massacre for own men and equipment. It was the alone way to break Barbarossa in that time in those conditions.
    The Soviets in the Baltic states had incomparably less military power.

    Zhukov's actions just fitted Barbarossa plan to destroy as much Soviet troops as possible near the border. What did that failed counterattack give? It was supposed to defeat German tank forces, stabilise the front-line near the border and create conditions for Soviet counter-offensive in the Western Ukraine.

    Everything was lost within a few days and the German advance continued. So you are right the name Zhukov really speaks for itself.




    Kievan Rus is considered ancient Russia.
    It can be considered ancient Russia as much as the Roman Empire can be considered ancient France.

    Rus and Russia have got the same root.
    It does not have common root in either Russian or Ukrainian or Belarusian - in Russian it is Россия и Русь.

    There is a noble unofficial phrase about Kiev - "Kiev is the mother of all Russian cities and towns".

    That's because Kiev was the capital of Kievan Rus but it has never been the capital of Russia. For instance, Moscow have never been a Russian (Kievan Rus) city or town as such town did not exist in Kievan Rus.
    Moscow was a tiny and likely Finno-Ugric village at the times of Kievan Rus.
    Russia stems from Moscovia. Moscovian princedom never existed in Kievan Rus.
    Last edited by Shamil; 29 Jan 09, 17:17.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Shamil View Post
      He clearly claimed that Mech Corps were lost in vain. The only result was the elimination of the bulk of the Soviet tank forces in Ukraine. The commissar and the member of the miliatry council of S-W front Vashugin even committed suicide when he learnt about the results of the mentioned battle on the 28th of June.
      He didn't write this.

      Vashugin shot himself because it was his blame that a half of the 8th Mech Corps was cut off in the region of Dubno. It was he who ordered to the Corps's commander to begin attack by the available forces without dely to concentrate the main forces.

      The Soviets in the Baltic states had incomparably less military power.
      yes

      Zhukov's actions just fitted Barbarossa plan to destroy as much Soviet troops as possible near the border. What did that failed counterattack give? It was supposed to defeat German tank forces, stabilise the front-line near the border and create conditions for Soviet counter-offensive in the Western Ukraine.
      The German blitzkrieg plan was to ENCIRCLE enemy forces with panzer units which moved further and further preventing enemy to build defence lines.

      In Byelorussia and the Baltic the German plan was successful. The panzer units moved further and further to east accross Soviet rears capturing new and new settlements.

      In the Ukraine the German forces lost many time, people and equipment defending against attacking Mech Corps instead of the initial plan to move further to east. Zhukov forced the Germans to defend instead of to attack. Zhukov actions let to the Soviets to catch initiative in the Ukraine temporally. The Germans temporally stopped and were repelling Soviet counter attacks for a few days. It let for the Soviets to prepare the defence in the region of Kiev. Panzer Group of Kleist suffered heavy casualties.

      Everything was lost within a few days and the German advance continued. So you are right the name Zhukov really speaks for itself.
      ???? So why did Kiev was still Soviet in August, a one and a half month after the beginning of the war?

      The Soviets did stopped the Germans in the Ukraine. The Germans did advanced but VERY slowly.
      Last edited by Andrey; 29 Jan 09, 21:14.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Shamil View Post
        It can be considered ancient Russia as much as the Roman Empire can be considered ancient France.
        no

        It does not have common root in either Russian or Ukrainian or Belarusian - in Russian it is Россия и Русь.
        Russians is Русские. Kievan Rus is Киевская Русь.

        Россия is based on Русь. I am not an expert when the words were changed. The meaning is the same.

        That's because Kiev was the capital of Kievan Rus but it has never been the capital of Russia. For instance, Moscow have never been a Russian (Kievan Rus) city or town as such town did not exist in Kievan Rus.
        Moscow was a tiny and likely Finno-Ugric village at the times of Kievan Rus.
        Russia stems from Moscovia. Moscovian princedom never existed in Kievan Rus.
        The Russians suppose Kiev is their ancient capital. This is the fact. The Ukrainian nationalist cab think what they want.

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        • #19
          It can be considered ancient Russia as much as the Roman Empire can be considered ancient France.
          Gaul is very much considered ancient France. Even modern arab-Egyptians consider ancient Egypt to be their heritage.

          Moscow existed on the territory of Kievan Rus as a small village/town. Moscow then was part of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality after the first break-up of Kievan Rus in 1056. In most English language text Kievan Rus and Kievan Russia are interchangeible.

          But this is very OFFTOPIC!
          Last edited by Emil_G; 29 Jan 09, 21:35.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Andrey View Post
            He didn't write this.

            Vashugin shot himself because it was his blame that a half of the 8th Mech Corps was cut off in the region of Dubno. It was he who ordered to the Corps's commander to begin attack by the available forces without dely to concentrate the main forces.
            All the Mech Corps were thrown to battle on parts without proper concentration according to Moscow's and Zhukov's desires.


            The German blitzkrieg plan was to ENCIRCLE enemy forces with panzer units which moved further and further preventing enemy to build defence lines.
            The Soveits was constantly retreating and never built any steady defense line up to reaching the Dnieper that was a natural defense line.

            In Byelorussia and the Baltic the German plan was successful. The panzer units moved further and further to east accross Soviet rears capturing new and new settlements.
            Belarus was the main offensice direction, Ukraine was the second-rate plus the bulk of the Red Army power was concentrated in Ukraine.



            In the Ukraine the German forces lost many time, people and equipment defending against attacking Mech Corps instead of the initial plan to move further to east. Zhukov forced the Germans to defend instead of to attack. Zhukov actions let to the Soviets to catch initiative in the Ukraine temporally. The Germans temporally stopped and were repelling Soviet counter attacks for a few days. It let for the Soviets to prepare the defence in the region of Kiev. Panzer Group of Kleist suffered heavy casualties.

            No one thought or prepared the defense of Kiev in the first week of war. Zhukov just helped Germans in the destroying the Soviet tank forces in Ukraine and ensured the German occupation of the whole Ukaine within a few months

            ???? So why did Kiev was still Soviet in August, a one and a half month after the beginning of the war?
            Yeah, it is a great achievement of the Red Army in Ukraine considering that the Red Army outnumbered Germans and their allies more than 7 times in tanks and in 2.6 times in aircrafts and in 1.5 in manpower in Ukraine.

            The Soviets did stopped the Germans in the Ukraine. The Germans did advanced but VERY slowly.
            Very Slowly? Are you joking? It took sevaral months for Germans to seize Ukraine while it took almost 3 years for the Soviets to recapture it back.

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            • #21
              Moscow existed on the territory of Kievan Rus as a small village/town. Moscow then was part of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality after the first break-up of Kievan Rus in 1056. In most English language text Kievan Rus and Kievan Russia are interchangeible.

              But this is very OFFTOPIC!
              So what? English is just a foreign language irrelevant to the region. For instance English does not have separate words for российский and русский.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                So what? English is just a foreign language irrelevant to the region.
                You seem to know it rather well for an irrelevant language.

                For instance English does not have separate words for российский and русский.
                Does German or French?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                  no



                  Russians is Русские. Kievan Rus is Киевская Русь.

                  Россия is based on Русь. I am not an expert when the words were changed. The meaning is the same.

                  The Russians suppose Kiev is their ancient capital. This is the fact.
                  From this perspective modern Russians can be viewed as Ukrainian vassals that owed Kiev taxes for the last 800 years.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                    From this perspective modern Russians can be viewed as Ukrainian vassals that owed Kiev taxes for the last 800 years.
                    Haha, PLEASE explain THAT wonderful logic, I can't wait to laugh.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Emil_G View Post


                      Does German or French?
                      They are foreign languages irrelevat to the Eastern Slavs and their territories.
                      Even in Russian российский and русский are different words

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
                        Haha, PLEASE explain THAT wonderful logic, I can't wait to laugh.
                        It is Andrey's logic. Will you deny the fact that Kiev was the metropoly inthe Kievan Rus and the current European territories of the RF were Kiev's vassals?
                        Last edited by Shamil; 29 Jan 09, 22:25.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                          It is Andrey's logic. Will you deny the fact that Kiev was a metropoly and the current European territories of the RF were Kiev's vassals?
                          Andrey just says basic facts about Russian history. What Kievan Rus had absolutely 0 to do with is any "Ukranian" bandera, mazepa, etc.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                            All the Mech Corps were thrown to battle on parts without proper concentration according to Moscow's and Zhukov's desires.
                            The Soviets had no time to prepare. Their task was to catch the initiative. Their task was to break German plans at any price.

                            The Soveits was constantly retreating and never built any steady defense line up to reaching the Dnieper that was a natural defense line.
                            No. German mobile panzer units outflanked resistance points or broke weak defence. In the cebtral direction in the region of the river of the Dnieper a few reserve armies were concentrated aacidently. They were moving towards the Western border and were there when the war began. Their power was able to stop or slow down the German vanguard units.

                            Belarus was the main offensice direction, Ukraine was the second-rate plus the bulk of the Red Army power was concentrated in Ukraine.
                            yes

                            No one thought or prepared the defense of Kiev in the first week of war. Zhukov just helped Germans in the destroying the Soviet tank forces in Ukraine and ensured the German occupation of the whole Ukaine within a few months
                            The Germans spent a few months to get in the Ukraine the same territory as in Byelorussia and the Baltic where they spent a few days. And the Germans were forced to use panzer forces of Army Group Center and to delay the advance to Moscow for the occupation of the Ukraine.

                            Yeah, it is a great achievement of the Red Army in Ukraine considering that the Red Army outnumbered Germans and their allies more than 7 times in tanks and in 2.6 times in aircrafts and in 1.5 in manpower in Ukraine.
                            The Soviet forces were dispersed in huge terrotory and thery were not ready for battle. The most of tanks and planes were obsolete and need to repair.

                            The Soviet achievements in the Ukraine were great in comparison to what happened in Byelorussia and the Baltic.

                            The soviet achievements in the Ukraine let to win the war. It is possible now to count destroyed tanks but the fact is that the German Barbarossa plan failed in the Ukraine and resulted to the fail of the whole Barbarossa.

                            Very Slowly? Are you joking? It took sevaral months for Germans to seize Ukraine while it took almost 3 years for the Soviets to recapture it back.
                            After the initial rush of the first days of June before the engagement against Soviet Mech Corps in the triangle the Germans moved VERY slowly in the Ukraine.

                            Only the powerful tank attack from north resulted the collapse of the south-western front in the Kiev pocket. The German forces of Army Group South hadn't broken the Soviet defence in the Ukraine with their own forces.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
                              Andrey just says basic facts about Russian history. What Kievan Rus had absolutely 0 to do with is any "Ukranian" bandera, mazepa, etc.
                              Kiev lies in the territory of present-day Ukraine, the core around which the Kievan Rus was created. The formation of Kievan Rus was carried out by the Slavic ancestors of modern Ukrainians living in the territory of modern Ukraine that subjagated different Slavic and non-Slavic tribes and made them pay contributions later taxes to Kiev.
                              Last edited by Shamil; 29 Jan 09, 22:38.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                                Kiev lies in the territory of present-day Ukraine, the core around which the Kievan Rus was created. The formation of Kievan Rus was carried out by the people living in the territory of modern Ukraine that subjagated different Slavic and non-Slavic tribes and made them pay contributions later taxes to Kiev.
                                During the Scythian and Khasar times, yes. But Kievan Rus was formed by Varangians from Scandinavia, first they settled in Novgorod, then moved south and the center of power became Kiev.

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