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Voronezh & Steppe Fronts' OB Sept 1 1943

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  • Voronezh & Steppe Fronts' OB Sept 1 1943

    Could anyone provide the BSSA OB for Voronezh and Steppe Fronts for Sept 1 1943??? Thanks!

  • #2
    AS I have already said, I do have OOBs for that fronts only on July and August. July data are posted in the Battles/Kursk section
    Maybe Craig obtains more exact data
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Sean,

      Right now I don't have the time to do it. I have troubles keeping all my article information together plus another possible.

      In addition, I will be moving at the end of April.

      Craig
      Search in the past, for there you will find your future.

      Comment


      • #4
        AMVAS,
        Could you post your Aug 43 OB?
        I have an Aug OB which sadly does not include any units smaller than brigade- sapper/atrillery/AT/mortar rgts are NOT listed. I'm wondering which regiments were still with the various armies/fronts after Kursk (defensive phase). The July OB is very different from the Aug OB.
        Thanks, Sean
        P.S. It would be great if someone/publisher would divide the BSSA into "chapters" and make these available. Right now it is possible to only purchase the entire 41-45 BSSA for $260.00 on CDR. (from Ea$tview Publications, USA-talk about greedy capitalists!) I cannot afford it!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Sean,

          I don't believe Eastview will be doing this.

          And if anyone tries to break it down month by month, there are expending one heck of a lot of time doing it. Just for even one month.

          I think you better come up with the money or get a loan because I think that is the only way you'll be getting them.

          Craig
          Search in the past, for there you will find your future.

          Comment


          • #6
            Eastview...

            I don't want the whole damn thing, that's the point. Why should anyone pay for alot of data they don't want?
            Since BSSA is digitally available on CDR, it would take a person a few minutes to extract/cut/copy/paste the desired sections and either e-mail or ship on CDR, regardless of the digital format. BMP, JPEG, DOC, TXT,and PDF are all very fast and easy to work with.
            Eastview won't do this; not because it is difficult, but because they know they can extort $$ from us because we have no choice; they are the only "publishers" of BSSA, and the only format they sell it in is $240.
            BTW, I don't think Eastview "owns" the "rights" to the BSSA, in the sense that they are legally the only entity which is allowed to publish it. Anyone with a copy (from whatever source, be it a library in Russia or wherever) could provide it for money, or completely free of charge. Also, some of Eastview's "releases" are poorly done, nearly-illegible photocopies. See http://docs.vif2.ru/ for some examples. Eastview charges $90.00 apiece (!) for blurry, tiny, illegible copies of SBDVOV 1-43. Thankfully, the folks at vif2.ru have posted all of them for free.
            Eastview seems to think they can charge whatever they please because they are the only source for some of these documents. The internet is proving them wrong.

            Comment


            • #7
              P.S. Thanks

              Thank you AMVAS, and all the other "Russian" military history websites for providing this material for free: militera.lib.ru, mechkorps.ru, RKKA.ru, docs.vif2.ru, JSA, vrazvedka.ru, soldat.narod.ru, soldat.ru, hwar1941.narod.ru, armor.kiev.ru, Guererro's Red Army Studies, and many others. [email protected]#$%g incredible!!!:thumb:

              Comment


              • #8
                Sean,

                The operative word for you is "free", not a certain period. Michael Avazini told me about you.
                We're the ones investing the time, effort and money to do the research.

                BTW, Eastview does sell the individual years on microfiche. for about $56.00. And the quality of the fiche has improved.

                Ooops, that's right. it's not free to you.

                Craig
                Search in the past, for there you will find your future.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sean Oliver
                  AMVAS,
                  Could you post your Aug 43 OB?
                  I have an Aug OB which sadly does not include any units smaller than brigade- sapper/atrillery/AT/mortar rgts are NOT listed. I'm wondering which regiments were still with the various armies/fronts after Kursk (defensive phase). The July OB is very different from the Aug OB.
                  Thanks, Sean
                  ...
                  Yep, it's much differs from July's one....
                  Maybe I'll process it in April, as the heap of maps to be handled increased up to giant size and can be compared with Everest
                  I mean ones from vif2.docs, my CD, Frontline Illustrations and Military Chronicles
                  If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Soviet sources, Sharing info, co$t

                    Craig:
                    FREE??? What makes you think I only want things for FREE?
                    Just a week or so ago I asked to buy a subscription to your "JSA" and "Armies of the Bear" (whatever that is) and you replied you COULDN'T give me one because you didn't have your act together!!!
                    What the HELL are you talking about?! I also just shelled out $$$ for the last 3 volumes of Sharp's series I didn't have on the Red Army last week, even though I have most of the info anyway from various Red Army unit histories,which I spent ALOT of money on to photocopy.
                    BTW, I understand some people in Russia aren't too happy with you, Craig. Does it have something to do with...money?
                    Do you think I enjoy asking for one Front's worth of OB for one month on the forum??? I would gladly pay 20 bucks or so for it. That is the whole point. I won't pay for the whole thing at 250 dollars, though.
                    As for Mr. Avanzini, He ASKED me to collaborate on a "Yelnia" scenario for "Panzer Campaigns" by doing the Soviet OB. I spent 6 months and about $600.00 and God knows how many hours working on it: $150.00 for a new scanner, $70.00-80.00 on photocopies for various Russian texts I couldn't check out and scan at home, new OCR and translation software for Russian text ($350.00+/-) and $30.00 to Col. David Glantz for his copy of SBDVOV # 41 which is much better and clearer than Eastview's $90.00 copy of the same document. Because of the "scenario" I spent hour after hour on the computer reading various Russian language texts including Eremenko's, Zhukov's, Rokossovski's, Baklanov's, Naumenko's and Voronov's memoirs, plus all the various SBDVOV documents related to the battle, (37,41,43) and the histories of the 1st Motorized Rifle Div, (Samchuk) the 100th RD,(can't remember the author). The BSSA OB which Avanzini gave me was incorrect in some places, but I was able to sort it all out.
                    After all this, Avanzini ignored my efforts to do work on the scenario because he was "too busy" with "Rzhev 42"...
                    I still have all the research-probably the most troop strength data, intelligence asessments, deployments, reports, orders, and personal narratives on the Western Front's Dukhovshchina-Yartsevo Offensive Operation in English anywhere. BTW, I'll provide all of the info FREE if anyone wants it...
                    Just because you or Avanzini or anyone else decides to spend exhorbitant amounts for something doesn't mean you are in possetion of a rarity, and are thus superior beings. BSSA has been floating around for decades-it's not a sacred text which only you posess and can dictate who or who may not have access to it. You and Avanzini have both freely posted excerpts from BSSA many times on the forums. Now, I suppose you won't, because you think you've expended a huge amount of blood sweat and tears to get a copy, and freeloaders like me don't deserve any info from it. That truly sucks. I thought we were supposed to SHARE info on an often-neglected aspect of WWII, namely the Soviet side.
                    I am not going to give 250.00 to Eastview because the BSSA is not an "original" piece of research-it is a book which was written and published by the Soviet General Staff many years ago, not by Eastview Publications. They do not deserve the $$$. All Eastview did was photocopy the book(s) from a library in Russia/FSU or perhaps the US Army War College Library or wherever, and then announce to gullible western "researchers" they had a "secret wartime document". **** them. The BSSA has been around for decades- alot of people have it already, and alot of us are not willing to spend huge amounts of money for badly copied Soviet WWII works. I certainly won't, unless the price comes down. Alot. Then we'll talk. 50 bucks for one year sounds OK for BSSA, but it still is inaccurate as hell and far from complete. I wonder why they didn't consider it 3 years ago when they announced to the expectant world they had a copy for sale?. My guess is they probably thought they could sell it for 250.00, but have since realized their mistake.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Soviet sources, Sharing info, co$t

                      Originally posted by Sean Oliver
                      Heh....software here are less expensive :thumb:
                      But I will not say that all is a licensed one :nonono:
                      But most of it works fine:drool:
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sean,
                        Craig:
                        FREE??? What makes you think I only want things for FREE?
                        Just a week or so ago I asked to buy a subscription to your "JSA" and "Armies of the Bear" (whatever that is) and you replied you COULDN'T give me one because you didn't have your act together!!!

                        "Uh"? I told you where to click on the button and follow the instructions. I do not run the page, the publisher does. If there is still a problem, contact the publisher. He has the software and operates the subscriptions. I just proof-read and edit the material.

                        I am still trying to figure out the problem with the Russians (it's all from two people, too.). Both I have consulted with Russians in US and they read the messages and they considered them Russian nationalists. One wanted WAYYYYY too much for his material.

                        And if your realying on the German intelligence material, I would not go there. It is full of errors.

                        And remember, the last volumes of BSSA were not published by the General Staff until 1988 and 1990.

                        Well, the last word I heard was that the Russian military libraries were charging $1.00 to copy 1 (One) page to any of the foreigners, not the $0.10 here. Then there is the cost/time of putting it on a microfiche all of the pages.

                        Are there errors, of course. When you consider the massive amount of work that is in it.
                        Is there stuff missing? yes. But you have to remember
                        1) There was probably a size limitation to the books. Thus limiting the amount of material and which type of units.
                        2) Snap shots. Remember, your dealing with 1 day of the month. What happened the rest of the month you have to consult other sources.

                        JSA is a non-profit organization. We do not profit at all from the material. In fact, we're losing money. So what we charge for subscriptions isn't enough, but we still keep it low.


                        Craig
                        Search in the past, for there you will find your future.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          PS. Typical copying charge in Russian State Library is ~$0.15 per 1 b/w page for all, ~$1.5 for color copy
                          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            AMVAS,

                            RGVA charges $1.00 per page.

                            I would like to get some material from them, but I am afraid what just one file would cost.

                            Craig
                            Search in the past, for there you will find your future.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If certain Russian libraries/archives charge that much, all the more reason to start making the material available free!
                              I realize that it's very costly to track down some of this stuff. But a company like Eastview should put a little consideration into the needs of their potential customers. Breaking it down (BSSA) would be technically easy, and I'm sure they would sell alot more small OBs at greater profit than one big one, and there would be at least one happier customer. As an example, Nafziger's approach comes to mind.
                              Craig; when I asked you about subscriptions to JSA/AB, (there is not a link at the JSA site to subscribe to AB) you said I should wait til April, when the site was getting a face-lift or something. You were vague. I didn't know all you do is proofread stuff. I thought it was yours and Avanzini's project.

                              Comment

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