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  • Kaliningrad

    Why is Kaliningrad still called Kaliningrad? It would seem that since both Stalingrad and Leningrad have changed thier names back to pre-revolunary names, Kaliningrad would revert to Konigsberg.

    Do you think there will be a time when Prussia will become Prussia again? If not, will the area become an independant state? Will it become part of Lithuania or Poland? I can't imagine it becoming part of Germany again, but that would seem the logical solution following the re-unification of East and West Germany.

    Why is Kaliningrad so closed off?
    Givin' you the scoop, the poop, the skinny and the scuttlebutt since 1969!

  • #2
    Hi,

    Just a note:

    Tsaritsyn was founded in 1589 by Tsar Theodore. In 1925 Tsaritsyn’s name was changed to Stalingrad (to honor Stalin). Then in 1962 (after Stalin’s death) Stalingrad was renamed again to Volgograd, the name it holds today. There is a movement to renamed it back to Stalingrad, but I don’t think they have a chance.

    Don’t know about our other questions.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Dann Falk
      Hi,

      Just a note:

      Tsaritsyn was founded in 1589 by Tsar Theodore. In 1925 Tsaritsyn’s name was changed to Stalingrad (to honor Stalin). Then in 1962 (after Stalin’s death) Stalingrad was renamed again to Volgograd, the name it holds today. There is a movement to renamed it back to Stalingrad, but I don’t think they have a chance.

      Don’t know about our other questions.
      Aww, crap! I knew that, too!:drool:

      Ok. Well. ummmmm. yeah. What about Kaliningrad?

      I am still curious to see what the RKKA experts have to add....

      Thanks, though:thumb:
      Givin' you the scoop, the poop, the skinny and the scuttlebutt since 1969!

      Comment


      • #4
        If Kaliningrad had a previous Russian name, it would've been renamed a long time ago (back when it was popular). But renaming it back to Koenigsberg would cause quite a scandal.

        Another consideration is that while there are groups that find the names of Lenin and Stalin objectionable, I don't know anyone who cares one way or the other about Kalinin.

        But come to think of it, I doubt that Stalingrad would've been renamed in modern Russia if it hadn't been done back in Khruschev's USSR. Unlike Tsaritsyn, St.Petersburg had a very historical and important name (former capital, after all) and they wanted to bring it back (and even that was accomplished partially -- now St.Petersburg is surrounded by Leningrad Oblast). But for Stalingrad, it was this name which stood for the pinnacle of the city's history.

        There is no chance of Kaliningrad becoming a part of another state unless Russia collapses (which is unlikely). And no, Kaliningrad is not a closed city anymore.
        Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

        Comment


        • #5
          Perhaps, if Russia is remiss to revert to the historical germanic name, then perhaps a Russian translation of "king's mountain" would be a better choice than having it continue to be the namesake of a forgotten or unknown Soviet politician. Perhaps Kalinin was a great man.....





          Why, do you think, Russia would never allow Kaliningrad to become part of another state? Would it have a better chance of becoming an Independant state?

          Is it seen as symbolic? Because it is the historical epicenter of german militarism and "Drang nach Osten"?

          Is it still "paying the bill" for the war?
          Givin' you the scoop, the poop, the skinny and the scuttlebutt since 1969!

          Comment


          • #6
            1. Renaming is very expensive process. And there will be very many mistakes for a long time after renaming.

            2. Russia has very many old people who lived in USSR all their life. They will protest against renamings.

            3. As I know only some Russian towns were renamed – mainly it was old cities with glorious past
            - Kalinin returned name Tver’,
            - Gor’kiy returned name Nizhniy Novgorod,
            - Leningrad returned name St. Petersburg,
            - Sverdlovsk returned name Ekaterinburg.

            But other were not renamed, for example, Kirov.

            4. Most streets were not renamed in Russia after collapse of USSR.

            Practically every Russian city and towns has main central Lenin and Marx streets. Many streets have names of different communist leaders. But we do not recall who was Lenin when speak “Lenin street”, we think only about place.

            5. Kalinin was one of most soft Soviet leaders in Stalin time. He didn’t take part in repressions like many other leaders, he was not bloody criminal, many people in that time wrote letters for him with ask to help.

            6. Renaming of Kaliningrad in Kenigsburg will increase German wish to take this land back.

            And it is German name, this name is not only place in map, East Prussia was symbol of German militarism, it was old threat for Russia.

            And “Kenigburg” has ominous hearing for Russian ears, Dresden, Magdeburg have more soft hearings. When I hear “Kenigsburg” it is something coarse, menacing.

            And there is old German famous city Danzig, now it is Polish Gdansk. Let’s rename it also.

            There are Helsinki agreements of 1977 to not change current borders.

            7. You speak about question to give Kaliningrad region to other country…

            Kaliningrad region has important sea ports, it has important naval bases of Russian Baltic Fleet.

            And I have good example for you.

            In XIX Century one stupid Russian Emperor sold for US large amount of Russian territory – Alyaska.

            Can you to discus question about to take Alyaska back in Russia? It is our old territory and it is far directly from main US territory.

            Kaliningrad for Russia is like Alyaska for US.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Andrey

              Can you to discus question about to take Alyaska back in Russia? It is our old territory and it is far directly from main US territory.

              Hey!!!!! Maybe Canada can invade it ???
              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

              Comment


              • #8
                My question about Alyaska was only example, nobody in Russia now want to get Alyaska back.

                Our emotions when you speak about taking Kaliningrad to other country are like your emotions if anybody will ask you about taking of Alyaska to other country.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Kaliningrad

                  Originally posted by Fenrir
                  Why is Kaliningrad still called Kaliningrad? It would seem that since both Stalingrad and Leningrad have changed thier names back to pre-revolunary names, Kaliningrad would revert to Konigsberg.

                  Do you think there will be a time when Prussia will become Prussia again? If not, will the area become an independant state? Will it become part of Lithuania or Poland? I can't imagine it becoming part of Germany again, but that would seem the logical solution following the re-unification of East and West Germany.

                  Why is Kaliningrad so closed off?
                  Plz, don't involve me in a long political discussions.
                  Again need to notice that every political topic steals time from WW2 info which may be vitely important for somebody else.

                  As for Kaliningrad, the season of salery of Russian territories is over! Persons interested in them, are asked to search for other offers :sleep:
                  If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Andrey
                    1. Renaming is very expensive process. And there will be very many mistakes for a long time after renaming.

                    2. Russia has very many old people who lived in USSR all their life. They will protest against renamings.

                    3. As I know only some Russian towns were renamed – mainly it was old cities with glorious past
                    - Kalinin returned name Tver’,
                    - Gor’kiy returned name Nizhniy Novgorod,
                    - Leningrad returned name St. Petersburg,
                    - Sverdlovsk returned name Ekaterinburg.

                    But other were not renamed, for example, Kirov.

                    4. Most streets were not renamed in Russia after collapse of USSR.

                    Practically every Russian city and towns has main central Lenin and Marx streets. Many streets have names of different communist leaders. But we do not recall who was Lenin when speak “Lenin street”, we think only about place.

                    5. Kalinin was one of most soft Soviet leaders in Stalin time. He didn’t take part in repressions like many other leaders, he was not bloody criminal, many people in that time wrote letters for him with ask to help.

                    6. Renaming of Kaliningrad in Kenigsburg will increase German wish to take this land back.

                    And it is German name, this name is not only place in map, East Prussia was symbol of German militarism, it was old threat for Russia.

                    And “Kenigburg” has ominous hearing for Russian ears, Dresden, Magdeburg have more soft hearings. When I hear “Kenigsburg” it is something coarse, menacing.

                    And there is old German famous city Danzig, now it is Polish Gdansk. Let’s rename it also.

                    There are Helsinki agreements of 1977 to not change current borders.

                    7. You speak about question to give Kaliningrad region to other country…

                    Kaliningrad region has important sea ports, it has important naval bases of Russian Baltic Fleet.

                    And I have good example for you.

                    In XIX Century one stupid Russian Emperor sold for US large amount of Russian territory – Alyaska.

                    Can you to discus question about to take Alyaska back in Russia? It is our old territory and it is far directly from main US territory.

                    Kaliningrad for Russia is like Alyaska for US.
                    A comparison between the nearly 60 year occupation/annexation of the Kaliningrad area and the legal sale of Alaska to the United States is wrong. The United Stated did not fight a war for it's very survival against the equally brave people of Alaska and subsequently occupy it. Alaska was purchased legally.

                    As to the isssue of changing Kaliningrad's name, I am merely curious although I find it remarkable that the very name "Koenigsberg" is still able to haunt the collective nightmares of the Russian to such an extant.

                    I'm also surprised that the Naval Base is considered so vital. Even the U.S., with our immense greed, was able to finally relenquish the vital and massive, not to mention strategic Naval and Air bases in the Phillipines and allow the Filipino people to enjoy self govenrment.

                    Thanks, guys for your insights. It's truly a pleasure to read your replies. :thumb:
                    Givin' you the scoop, the poop, the skinny and the scuttlebutt since 1969!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Kaliningrad

                      Originally posted by amvas
                      Plz, don't involve me in a long political discussions.
                      Again need to notice that every political topic steals time from WW2 info which may be vitely important for somebody else.

                      As for Kaliningrad, the season of salery of Russian territories is over! Persons interested in them, are asked to search for other offers :sleep:
                      I'm certainly not trying to distract from our WW2 topic. I look at the situation in Kaliningrad as a continuation of the war--It is still occupied territory outside of Soviet/Russian borders and this is a direct effect of the war. Although a comparison could be made to American bases in Germany that exist to this day, they are not apt because those bases do not exist to squelch German militarism or to discourage German culture and history.
                      Givin' you the scoop, the poop, the skinny and the scuttlebutt since 1969!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Re: Re: Kaliningrad

                        Originally posted by Fenrir
                        I'm certainly not trying to distract from our WW2 topic. I look at the situation in Kaliningrad as a continuation of the war--It is still occupied territory outside of Soviet/Russian borders and this is a direct effect of the war. Although a comparison could be made to American bases in Germany that exist to this day, they are not apt because those bases do not exist to squelch German militarism or to discourage German culture and history.
                        Nope, it's a field of post-war political discussion.
                        If we start this we'll come to the topic about Poland's part of Prussia. Im' not sure that Poland does want to restore Prussia.
                        Or we will come to the problem of illegal getting of Sevastopol by Ukraine.. Much tasks to discuss in this key.
                        that's why I do not fond of such a direction of discussion.
                        Kaliningrad was received as a satisfaction for the USSR for all harm that was made by Germany. And I think it's illegal to return it
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Kaliningrad

                          Originally posted by amvas

                          Kaliningrad was received as a satisfaction for the USSR for all harm that was made by Germany. And I think it's illegal to return it
                          I dont think East Prussia was givin so much as it was taken.

                          The USSR no longer exists, yet Kaliningrad is still paying a debt?

                          Out of respect I will henceforth try to contain my questions about World War 2 to the years 1939-1945.

                          Thanks for you feed back--this has been a great debate!

                          :thumb:
                          Givin' you the scoop, the poop, the skinny and the scuttlebutt since 1969!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fenrir
                            A comparison between the nearly 60 year occupation/annexation of the Kaliningrad area and the legal sale of Alaska to the United States is wrong. The United Stated did not fight a war for it's very survival against the equally brave people of Alaska and subsequently occupy it. Alaska was purchased legally.
                            OK, let's speak about California. As I know it was Mexican territory which was captured by Americans in result of war. Take it back to Mexica.

                            Kaliningrad became Russian terriotory legally. Germany attacked USSR in 1941, not USSR invaded in Germany. Kaliningrad region was satisfation. West Allies confirmed that it is OK that Kaliningrad became Soviet territory.

                            And if you so worry about former German lands...

                            All current West and Northern Poland (together with Gdansk/Danzig) were old German lands before 1945. Why don't you speak about it? Poland also sent all Germans from these terrotories in Germany in 1945...

                            And there are many other examples...

                            As to the isssue of changing Kaliningrad's name, I am merely curious although I find it remarkable that the very name "Koenigsberg" is still able to haunt the collective nightmares of the Russian to such an extant.
                            You misunderstood me. We do not afraid Kenigsburg name. We do not like this name and I do not understand why do we have to change name of Russian city on name which we do not like. Opinion of one guy from USA is not serious reason.

                            I'm also surprised that the Naval Base is considered so vital. Even the U.S., with our immense greed, was able to finally relenquish the vital and massive, not to mention strategic Naval and Air bases in the Phillipines and allow the Filipino people to enjoy self govenrment.
                            I spoke naval bases, not naval base.

                            Russians live in Kaliningrad region now, all Germans were sent in Germany in 1945 so there is no non-Russian popukation in Kaliningrad region now. It is completely RUSSIAN land now.

                            So there is no brave natives who fight for independence. It is only your personal problem (and, may be, some crazy Nazi in Germany)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kaliningrad

                              Originally posted by Fenrir
                              I dont think East Prussia was givin so much as it was taken.

                              The USSR no longer exists, yet Kaliningrad is still paying a debt?

                              Out of respect I will henceforth try to contain my questions about World War 2 to the years 1939-1945.

                              Thanks for you feed back--this has been a great debate!

                              :thumb:
                              1. There is no more East Prussia. It is part of Russia ad Poland here.

                              2. USSR was organization of 15 republics. Kaliningrad region was not separate region, it was part of PSFSR, one of 15 republics of USSR. After collapse of USSR RSFSR became current Russia (without any territory changing!!!). So Kaliningrad region is region of Russia now. What is problem with this?

                              Comment

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