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Through the Maelstrom: A Red Army Soldier's War on the Eastern Front, 1942-1945

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  • #16
    holly6 - how many people would you say died? I am not defending this article as some truth fountain, but it did make me think about the subject, and I realized I know very little about it.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by holly6 View Post
      Introducing this into a serious historical forum only continues to create the distrust many Western historians have of Soviet-Russian research and writings.
      Yes, it turns them into a joke, rather like Soviet discus or shot putters at the Olympics ("is it a bird, is it a plane, is it a man or is it a woman"). When your Totalitarian ideology has become so pure that women shave, even procreation itself has a serious problem.

      FDR's 'new deal' IMO is the benchmark for how to get a society out of serious difficulty. Sure, it may borrow a lot against the future, but it was a hand up not a hand out. The artistic work alone commissioned is outstanding (photos particularly and I think John Steinbeck as a writer for example benefited). The Hoover Dam's concrete is apparently still setting after almost all those who worked on it are gone. To compare it to the GuLAG system is utterly abhorrent and worse- irresponsible. Shame on you.
      Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
      (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by General Staff View Post
        Too true, but to acknowledge it is to start addressing it. A work in progress.
        a very very very slow work in progress as I see every time I go to USA.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by .sergio. View Post
          a very very very slow work in progress as I see every time I go to USA.
          Well, one could argue it's a tribute to the USA that they let you in at all... Let's see now- oh, there it is- 1-800-STATE-DEPT...
          Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
          (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
            Well, one could argue it's a tribute to the USA that they let you in at all...
            why not?

            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
            Let's see now- oh, there it is- 1-800-STATE-DEPT...
            an informer into the forum ...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by .sergio. View Post
              an informer into the forum ...
              Time to send in SMERSH.


              Welcome back btw

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              • #22
                It is quite a streach to equate the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) WPA, or the other alphabet programs to police state work camps. My parents generation were of that era. They and the others of my grandprents generation had many stories about the public works organizations, and many of those stories were negative, but none of the tales concerned enforced slave labor.

                The people I met who actually were in those programs made joined voluntarily. There were storys about yong men given a choice between joining those work programs or going to prison for petty crimes, but I never met anyone who had first hand knowledge of this.

                They were also free to leave the programs. Most did as soon as they could find other employment.

                Most of the participants I meet did not live in camps. The CCC used camps, however most of the participants in that program I met did not live in the camps. They worked in projects close to home and did not reside in the tents provided.

                The police for these CCC camps were minimal. Some had no police at all & depended on a few supervisors to keep order. Expulsion from the program was often suffcient threat to keep the yong men in line.

                The WPA and other programs seldom used camps. Most of those projects were in the cities and there was little point to maintaining camps. Unlike the CCC the WPA projects usually paid a straight wage with few deductions.

                The work in some of these projects was hard. Most work in that era was hard by modern standards. Projects like the building of the Hoover Dam were brutal, however I've never met anyone from that era who thought the deaths or injuries were excessive. Historians or news journalists have published numbers claiming a excessive death or injury rate, but I'm unimpressed with the statistics as they dont look much differnet from that in other venues such as farming or mining.

                There are a fair number of items where the US can be criticized. The terror directed at the former slave population, the reppresion of the trade unions, exploitation of the Central American nations. But, trying to equate the CCC or WPA programs to police state labor or prison camps is dead end and your effort is better directed elsewhere.
                Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 04 Jun 08, 09:33.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by holly6 View Post
                  So-called public works introduced by President Roosevelt became a salvation for a huge number of jobless and landless Americans. However, the salvation was only a phantom, Boris Borisov wrote. The works conducted under the aegis of the Public Works Administration and the Civil Works Administration were about building channels, roads or bridges in remote, wild and dangerous territories. Up to 3.3 million people were involved in those works at a time, whereas the total number of people amounted to 8.5 million, not to count prisoners.

                  “Conditions and death rate at those works are to be studied separately. A member of public works would make $30, and pay $25 of taxes from this amount. So a person could make only $5 for a month of hard work in malarial swamps.”

                  The conditions, under which people were working for food, could be compared to Stalin’s GULAG camp.

                  “The Public Works Administration (PWA) bore a striking resemblance to GULAG. The PWA was chaired by “American Beria,” the Secretary of Interior Affairs, Harold Ickes, who threw about two million people into camps for the unemployed youth,” Borisov wrote.


                  Is this what the forum has gone too? I can't believe this was posted.

                  1. Have you no concept of a "free press"? 7 million die without a notice?
                  2. While the idea of a "mass grave" might be understandable to you, where would we possible bury 7 million bodies?
                  3. There were no "remote, wild and dangerous" areas in the US in the 30's that would rival the assumed reference to Siberia.
                  4. My Father was a Cadre for the CCC, the concept that "could be compared to Stalin's GULAG camp". The men volunteered. They were taught construction trades that they later used in their careers. And, laughable of all, the "$25 dollar tax", was sent directly to their parents. With all their food, shelter, uniforms, personals, taken care of, the $5 was for them to buy personal notions such as candy, soda etc.
                  These facts are easily found on sites both pro and con FDR. Both my Parents lived through the Depression, it was an incredibly tough time for people, but to protray it as this writer has done is irresponsible.

                  Introducing this into a serious historical forum only continues to create the distrust many Western historians have of Soviet-Russian research and writings.
                  ... hmmm - indeed, your last sentence strikes resonance w/me, as it appears that I am increasingly finding rather biased view points from what I would call Russian "revisionist" writing, and happily picked up w/o question by our rather "patriotic" Eastern European friends.
                  [... I am trying to learn], in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. Phil.4:11

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by joea View Post
                    Time to send in SMERSH.


                    Welcome back btw
                    thanks.
                    Another banned was bankotsu , and I don't understand why.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by .sergio. View Post
                      thanks.
                      Another banned was bankotsu , and I don't understand why.
                      Well Admiral posted the why, I am not surprised at all.

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                      • #26
                        imho that wasn't the real reason.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by .sergio. View Post
                          imho that wasn't the real reason.
                          Ummm, I think I know what your opnion is, and no not at all. Coming on and repating "I know the truth and you don't" and refusing to answer questions and even worse apparently creating multiple accounts (the last is reason enough on it's own for a ban) are plenty. It's not the fact he hold a different opinion...there are a few different views on this site and they are all welcome if they follow the written and un-written rules.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by joea View Post
                            Ummm, I think I know what your opnion is, and no not at all. Coming on and repating "I know the truth and you don't" and refusing to answer questions and even worse apparently creating multiple accounts (the last is reason enough on it's own for a ban) are plenty. It's not the fact he hold a different opinion... .
                            I hope.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              nuff said.
                              My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by holly6 View Post
                                So-called public works introduced by President Roosevelt became a salvation for a huge number of jobless and landless Americans. However, the salvation was only a phantom, Boris Borisov wrote. The works conducted under the aegis of the Public Works Administration and the Civil Works Administration were about building channels, roads or bridges in remote, wild and dangerous territories. Up to 3.3 million people were involved in those works at a time, whereas the total number of people amounted to 8.5 million, not to count prisoners.

                                “Conditions and death rate at those works are to be studied separately. A member of public works would make $30, and pay $25 of taxes from this amount. So a person could make only $5 for a month of hard work in malarial swamps.”

                                The conditions, under which people were working for food, could be compared to Stalin’s GULAG camp.

                                “The Public Works Administration (PWA) bore a striking resemblance to GULAG. The PWA was chaired by “American Beria,” the Secretary of Interior Affairs, Harold Ickes, who threw about two million people into camps for the unemployed youth,” Borisov wrote.


                                Is this what the forum has gone too? I can't believe this was posted.

                                1. Have you no concept of a "free press"? 7 million die without a notice?
                                2. While the idea of a "mass grave" might be understandable to you, where would we possible bury 7 million bodies?
                                3. There were no "remote, wild and dangerous" areas in the US in the 30's that would rival the assumed reference to Siberia.
                                4. My Father was a Cadre for the CCC, the concept that "could be compared to Stalin's GULAG camp". The men volunteered. They were taught construction trades that they later used in their careers. And, laughable of all, the "$25 dollar tax", was sent directly to their parents. With all their food, shelter, uniforms, personals, taken care of, the $5 was for them to buy personal notions such as candy, soda etc.
                                These facts are easily found on sites both pro and con FDR. Both my Parents lived through the Depression, it was an incredibly tough time for people, but to protray it as this writer has done is irresponsible.

                                Introducing this into a serious historical forum only continues to create the distrust many Western historians have of Soviet-Russian research and writings.

                                Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                                Yes, it turns them into a joke, rather like Soviet discus or shot putters at the Olympics ("is it a bird, is it a plane, is it a man or is it a woman"). When your Totalitarian ideology has become so pure that women shave, even procreation itself has a serious problem.

                                FDR's 'new deal' IMO is the benchmark for how to get a society out of serious difficulty. Sure, it may borrow a lot against the future, but it was a hand up not a hand out. The artistic work alone commissioned is outstanding (photos particularly and I think John Steinbeck as a writer for example benefited). The Hoover Dam's concrete is apparently still setting after almost all those who worked on it are gone. To compare it to the GuLAG system is utterly abhorrent and worse- irresponsible. Shame on you.
                                Well actually no there is no shame. I PBEM with Suncat and he is a young professional in Russia. He's an intelligent young man who had to respond to what he feels is "Russia bashing" and did so much more civilly than many of our US members would respond to Sergio.

                                Now truth, knowledge, and insight into other views are what I value about this forum. Suncat offered a link that was one of his sources of information.

                                Look at the positive we have gained from it. I never knew that anyone had compared FDR's social programs to the Gulags. Some of the earlier replies have given some insight into the actual situation. I must leave for work in a few minutes but I will give more details that I have heard from my parents and grandparents who lived near several work projects and knew several participants in the programs and met many more.

                                Suncat was not offensive he merely brought up a site that he was exposed to. I'm glad he did now we can address it an I actually get to share input from personal experiences of those involved in my part of the country.
                                Last edited by Widow Maker; 27 Jun 08, 13:34.
                                "Put guards on all the roads, and don't let the men run to the rear."
                                Major General John Buford's final words on his deathbed.

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