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Through the Maelstrom: A Red Army Soldier's War on the Eastern Front, 1942-1945

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  • Through the Maelstrom: A Red Army Soldier's War on the Eastern Front, 1942-1945

    http://www.amazon.com/Through-Maelst...0956011&sr=8-1

    Will be out in the fall, I highly recommend it. Read the description offered as well as what Glantz has to say.
    "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
    "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
    "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

  • #2
    I'll be getting this, and thanks for the link. Along with "Stalin's Slave Ships: Kolyma, the Gulag Fleet, and the Role of the West" (Bollinger) as soon as I can find a paperback version: http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Slave-...0976939&sr=1-1
    Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
    (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by General Staff View Post
      I'll be getting this, and thanks for the link. Along with "Stalin's Slave Ships: Kolyma, the Gulag Fleet, and the Role of the West" (Bollinger) as soon as I can find a paperback version: http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Slave-...0976939&sr=1-1
      No problem. I read Bollinger's book, it's OK, not worth that price tag though.
      "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
      "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
      "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by General Staff View Post
        I'll be getting this, and thanks for the link. Along with "Stalin's Slave Ships: Kolyma, the Gulag Fleet, and the Role of the West" (Bollinger)
        a bit off topic. But every chance is good to recall us your antisoviet paranoia , mh ?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by General Staff View Post
          I'll be getting this, and thanks for the link. Along with "Stalin's Slave Ships: Kolyma, the Gulag Fleet, and the Role of the West"
          It's sounds like "Harry Potter and the bloody NKVD"

          I think americans ought to research a death millions US citizens in time the Great Depression and in Roosevelt's labour camps... I think they will catch a likeness between PWA/СВА and GULag.

          http://english.pravda.ru/world/ameri...05255-famine-0
          http://www.****france.com/topic/3070...html&replies=3
          "In case of war guys in dark blue berets will be thrown in a mouth to an aggressor on purpose to break off this mouth"
          Vasily Margelov the father-founder of the Soviet airborne troops

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          • #6
            Wow

            Originally posted by SunCat View Post
            It's sounds like "Harry Potter and the bloody NKVD"

            I think americans ought to research a death millions US citizens in time the Great Depression and in Roosevelt's labour camps... I think they will catch a likeness between PWA/СВА and GULag.

            http://english.pravda.ru/world/ameri...05255-famine-0
            http://www.****france.com/topic/3070...html&replies=3
            Interesting article! Never really even though about how many people died during the Great Depression!

            Comment


            • #7
              Not surprising but let's be careful, we better establish the facts first. These tragedies are being used as sticks to beat other countries and systems people don't like.

              Still makes sense things were harsh in both nations....I doubt you could compare FDR's camps to the GULAGS, the New Deal was supposed to help people? I am pretty weak in these area of history though so better keep quiet.

              Ugh I hate this label:

              It is worthy of note that modern-day Russian patriotic historians reject methods of research based on the general estimation of demographic losses.
              Maybe a correct historiographic method but I hate the label "Russian patriotic historians."

              Historians whatever the nation, are not supposed to be patriotic. Well not in their history.
              Last edited by joea; 22 May 08, 06:17.

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              • #8
                The main drawback of this article is that it uses census demographic data to make its claim. The same type of data people use to make the claim Stalin killed a bajillion people.

                So basically, take it how you will.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SunCat View Post
                  It's sounds like "Harry Potter and the bloody NKVD"

                  I think americans ought to research a death millions US citizens in time the Great Depression and in Roosevelt's labour camps... I think they will catch a likeness between PWA/СВА and GULag.
                  or also the Genocide of Natives or the racism against Afro-american people.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by joea View Post
                    I hate the label "Russian patriotic historians."
                    Me too. Is there really such an animal? Surely if you're a historian, you've a duty to be un-Russian (or read un-tribal) and un-patriotic if you really really want to be objective, if that's what it takes.

                    If you disagree, I know a 3-legged pink bear you can dance with who will whisper sweet nothings about his Siberian genealogy ("grandmother only, grandfather died in Great Patriotic War") in your ear. You have to support him though, but one of his front paws has been modified to take credit cards, the other cash- the third is all claw, so be sure to remember your PIN #.
                    Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                    (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by .sergio. View Post
                      or also the Genocide of Natives or the racism against Afro-american people.
                      Too true, but to acknowledge it is to start addressing it. A work in progress.
                      Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                      (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                        Too true, but to acknowledge it is to start addressing it. A work in progress.
                        Well I can agree with that, and sadly, in reference to my post, there are still many of these patriotic historians around. In every country, the amateur they spring up outraged (google "The Valour and the Horror" and look for the reaction when this Canadian show came out as an example I know about) when historians dare revise or critic the popular war mythos.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kunikov View Post
                          http://www.amazon.com/Through-Maelst...0956011&sr=8-1

                          Will be out in the fall, I highly recommend it. Read the description offered as well as what Glantz has to say.
                          Thanks for the recommendation, looks worthwhile.
                          Will you be reviewing it for us?
                          Found one of the comments in the review interesting in an odd way, "A superb literary work that is far more accurate and comprehensive than Guy Sajer's bestselling memoir, The Forgotten Soldier." Without getting off thread, have you formed your own opinion on the authenticity of Sajer's work?
                          "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                            I'll be getting this, and thanks for the link. Along with "Stalin's Slave Ships: Kolyma, the Gulag Fleet, and the Role of the West" (Bollinger) as soon as I can find a paperback version: http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Slave-...0976939&sr=1-1
                            Apparently Bollinger's book is coming out in Paperback in September, so you're in luck.
                            "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                            "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                            "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SunCat View Post
                              It's sounds like "Harry Potter and the bloody NKVD"

                              I think americans ought to research a death millions US citizens in time the Great Depression and in Roosevelt's labour camps... I think they will catch a likeness between PWA/СВА and GULag.

                              http://english.pravda.ru/world/ameri...05255-famine-0
                              http://www.****france.com/topic/3070...html&replies=3
                              So-called public works introduced by President Roosevelt became a salvation for a huge number of jobless and landless Americans. However, the salvation was only a phantom, Boris Borisov wrote. The works conducted under the aegis of the Public Works Administration and the Civil Works Administration were about building channels, roads or bridges in remote, wild and dangerous territories. Up to 3.3 million people were involved in those works at a time, whereas the total number of people amounted to 8.5 million, not to count prisoners.

                              “Conditions and death rate at those works are to be studied separately. A member of public works would make $30, and pay $25 of taxes from this amount. So a person could make only $5 for a month of hard work in malarial swamps.”

                              The conditions, under which people were working for food, could be compared to Stalin’s GULAG camp.

                              “The Public Works Administration (PWA) bore a striking resemblance to GULAG. The PWA was chaired by “American Beria,” the Secretary of Interior Affairs, Harold Ickes, who threw about two million people into camps for the unemployed youth,” Borisov wrote.


                              Is this what the forum has gone too? I can't believe this was posted.

                              1. Have you no concept of a "free press"? 7 million die without a notice?
                              2. While the idea of a "mass grave" might be understandable to you, where would we possible bury 7 million bodies?
                              3. There were no "remote, wild and dangerous" areas in the US in the 30's that would rival the assumed reference to Siberia.
                              4. My Father was a Cadre for the CCC, the concept that "could be compared to Stalin's GULAG camp". The men volunteered. They were taught construction trades that they later used in their careers. And, laughable of all, the "$25 dollar tax", was sent directly to their parents. With all their food, shelter, uniforms, personals, taken care of, the $5 was for them to buy personal notions such as candy, soda etc.
                              These facts are easily found on sites both pro and con FDR. Both my Parents lived through the Depression, it was an incredibly tough time for people, but to protray it as this writer has done is irresponsible.

                              Introducing this into a serious historical forum only continues to create the distrust many Western historians have of Soviet-Russian research and writings.
                              My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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