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  • Originally posted by Oleg
    Where do I dispute it, eh?
    As I understood your words earlier you disagree that NKVD shot Polish POWs in Katyn before war and that it is only Nazi propaganda.

    Comment


    • I've acknowledged that Canadian and US troops committed atrocities in WW II. Where have the beliefs changed ??

      1. You stated previously that you did not differentiate between atrocities, large or small.
      2. Today you proceeded to differentiate between the scale of atrocities.

      There you go.

      BTW, if you could read properly, you might have noticed that I mentioned Western perception of the Red army soldier; not mine.

      I can read properly, and you did not mention such a thing.

      But, out of curiosity, is your perception different?
      Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

      Comment


      • As I said before, the German commissioning of the investigation in 1943 makes the findings no less true; maybe incomplete, but no less true.

        Incomplete doesn't begin to describe it. The only thing they got right was that NKVD was responsible. Which is not surprising, since there were only two possibilities, and they knew they didn't do it. Otherwise they wouldn't have started the charade with the investigation in the first place.

        And if after 5 repetitions you still cannot comprehend that I'm not discussing WHO killed the Poles, that I am merely ridiculing your reliance on Nazi sources, nothing will help you.

        You said the Soviet Union had nothing to apologize for. The Soviet government itself(1989) would seem to disagree with you.

        Where did the Soviet government disagree with me? Where is the document where they stated that Soviet Union needs to apologize for something?
        Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Andrey
          As I understood your words earlier you disagree that NKVD shot Polish POWs in Katyn before war and that it is only Nazi propaganda.
          Where did you find such words of mine? Which post?
          Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Oleg
            I've acknowledged that Canadian and US troops committed atrocities in WW II. Where have the beliefs changed ??

            1. You stated previously that you did not differentiate between atrocities, large or small.
            2. Today you proceeded to differentiate between the scale of atrocities.

            There you go.

            -----Not at all.
            I simply differentiated between atrocities committed against soldiers and those committed against civilians. Those committed against civilians, in my book, are more serious in nature; whatever their scale.-----

            BTW, if you could read properly, you might have noticed that I mentioned Western perception of the Red army soldier; not mine.

            I can read properly, and you did not mention such a thing.

            But, out of curiosity, is your perception different?
            Read Andrey's post my response is directed to. It mentions Western perception of the Red Army soldier. I assumed the implication was clear. Apparently not.
            And yes, my perception of the Red Army soldier is different.
            Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

            Comment


            • I simply differentiated between atrocities committed against soldiers and those committed against civilians. Those committed against civilians, in my book, are more serious in nature; whatever their scale.

              And you don't believe that Americans or Canadians committed any crimes against civilians (such as rape, looting)?

              Read Andrey's post my response is directed to. It mentions Western perception of the Red Army soldier. I assumed the implication was clear. Apparently not.

              No, the implication was not clear at all. Especially considering that afterward to proceed to present exaggerated claims of Red Army atrocities.

              And yes, my perception of the Red Army soldier is different.

              In what way?
              Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

              Comment


              • There seems to be some confusion here.

                ---I never differentiated between small or large atrocities. An atrocity is an atrocity---

                The above is the original post. -Past tense-, referring to a previous post when Andrey questioned about scale of atrocities. In other words, I had said nothing about the scale of the atrocities in my previous posts.

                Now, if I were to imply that a minor atrocity is the same as a major atrocity, I would have said:
                I never differentiate between small or large atrocities. -Present tense-.

                Of course, killing 500 000-800 000 people such as the Rwanda episode in the 90s is worse than.......say the My Lai massacre of 70(?) or so killed.

                Unfortunately, I was sidetracked in later posts and never got back to the issue until it was raised here again.

                Well, that's enough of the reading lessons for today gentlemen. Gotta sleep and all.
                Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                Comment


                • Oleg, I understood your opinion so.

                  You said that USSR had no reasons to apologize.

                  Tigerqn said that there is such reason - Katyn.

                  You answered that USSR doesn't must to apologize for Katyn events and that it is only Nazi propaganda.

                  And all current discussion became equal that type of discussion which has Russian name "Durak! Sam durak!" (common words and emotions from both sides).

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tigersqn
                    There seems to be some confusion here.

                    ---I never differentiated between small or large atrocities. An atrocity is an atrocity---

                    The above is the original post. -Past tense-, referring to a previous post when Andrey questioned about scale of atrocities. In other words, I had said nothing about the scale of the atrocities in my previous posts.

                    Now, if I were to imply that a minor atrocity is the same as a major atrocity, I would have said:
                    I never differentiate between small or large atrocities. -Present tense-.

                    Of course, killing 500 000-800 000 people such as the Rwanda episode in the 90s is worse than.......say the My Lai massacre of 70(?) or so killed.

                    Unfortunately, I was sidetracked in later posts and never got back to the issue until it was raised here again.

                    Well, that's enough of the reading lessons for today gentlemen. Gotta sleep and all.
                    If large army occupies enemy territory there is "normal" amount of atrocities from soldiers to local civilians. Even in excellent army some civilians were shot in accidents, some were raped by small part of criminals which any large army contains. So, for example, 1-2 raping facts on 10,000 soldiers (it is only example digits) are normal situation.

                    So it is very important to know concrete digit. If army had 1,000,000 soldiers and there are 500,000 facts of raping, it is very large digit and if there are 100 facts of raping, it is low digit.

                    Of course, even 100 rape cases is bad thing, especially if to speak with all victims of these crimes but it means that army is not too cruel.

                    Beevor uses digit 2 million without saying of serious sources of his digit. If to say other digit, 10,000 for example, it will be also many but it will show less level of cruelity of troops.

                    Comment


                    • Andrey wrote:
                      So it is very important to know concrete digit. If army had 1,000,000 soldiers and there are 500,000 facts of raping, it is very large digit and if there are 100 facts of raping, it is low digit.

                      Of course, even 100 rape cases is bad thing, especially if to speak with all victims of these crimes but it means that army is not too cruel.

                      Beevor uses digit 2 million without saying of serious sources of his digit. If to say other digit, 10,000 for example, it will be also many but it will show less level of cruelity of troops.
                      Beevor uses even higher digit...

                      Beevor estimates that millions of German women were raped - ranging in age from 8 to 80. Between 1945-1948, 2 million illegal abortions were performed in Germany every year. No wonder that until the fall of the Soviet Union, women in East Berlin called the monument commemorating unknown Soviet soldiers in Berlin the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist."

                      Beevor confesses that he himself was stunned by the figures. Particularly shocking was the discovery that Soviet soldiers raped not only German women (among them nuns and hospital nurses) but also Russian women captured by the Germans and sent to forced labor camps. Hence it was not just revenge. It was evidence of the darker side of men. Working on this book, Beevor says, made him reconsider Marilyn French's grim verdict in "The War Against Women" that "all men are rapists."
                      source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/401379.html

                      This is from another source:

                      By the late 1940s - the rapes went on for three years or more - the Soviet troops had left behind them a broken people. According to some reports, 90 per cent of Berlin women were infected with venereal diseases, while Beevor cites one doctor who said that, of the 100,000 women estimated to have been raped in Berlin, a tenth of them died, mostly from suicide. The mortality figures for the approximately 1.4 million raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia, he says, are believed to have been much higher.
                      Of those who became pregnant, an estimated 90 per cent had abortions. Those who did give birth often gave their children up for adoption because of the shame. In 1946, 3.7 per cent of children born in Berlin had Russian fathers. Even now, says Helke Sander, a German left-wing activist and author of The Liberator and the Relieved, an extensive 1992 study of women who were raped, the consequences are still felt.
                      source: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...742341,00.html

                      Regards, Sven

                      Comment


                      • Just read Spearhead series summary of 82nd AD history. There is a bried description of events after the 82nd had linked up with Russian troops. It states that after initial attempts at socialising the 82nd soon realised that the Red Army soldiers drank without limits and were concerned only with rape and pillage. Within days the 82nd stopped all fraternisation attempts and all the american troops could do was to try and come between the locals and the marauding Red Army units.

                        So it appears that even frontline troops in contact with americans couldn't be kept disciplined (if that was the desire of the Red Army command at all).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pp(est)
                          Just read Spearhead series summary of 82nd AD history. There is a bried description of events after the 82nd had linked up with Russian troops. It states that after initial attempts at socialising the 82nd soon realised that the Red Army soldiers drank without limits and were concerned only with rape and pillage. Within days the 82nd stopped all fraternisation attempts and all the american troops could do was to try and come between the locals and the marauding Red Army units.

                          So it appears that even frontline troops in contact with americans couldn't be kept disciplined (if that was the desire of the Red Army command at all).
                          1. Read Soviet books and see Soviet movies of Cold War time and you will see other picture. It can be result of Western propaganda.

                          2. There is question how did Americans could see what happened in territory which was controlled by Soviet troops. I do not believe that Soviet soldiers could rape German women in 200 meters before Americans in clear field.

                          3. What did American soldiers do when they saw how evil Russians rape German women?

                          It looks like they (and you) suppose that it was OK for Russian soldiers to rape German women.

                          I shall explain for you. To drink vodka and to rape women are different things. “To drink vodka” is legal action, but “to rape women” is one of most large crimes.

                          Soviet Command ordered to not make atrocities against civilians. Punishment for atrocity was one – shooting. I agree that some units could have low discipline; in this case Americans had to report about rape facts to Soviet Command or to visit local Soviet unit commander and to demand to stop atrocities or they (Americans) will report for Soviet High Command about these cases.

                          And Americans could stop crimes with power of weapon; I do not suppose that to shoot some soldiers-criminals was crime. Soviet command could only to say “Thanks” for such actions.

                          4. Even it was true, it is not proof that it was always and everywhere.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Trommelfeuer
                            Andrey wrote:

                            Beevor uses even higher digit...


                            source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/401379.html

                            This is from another source:


                            source: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...742341,00.html

                            Regards, Sven
                            1. Thank you, Sven, for concrete links.

                            But I found in this articles only repeating of main words of Beevor without proofs.

                            So I want to repeat again and again that it is wrong

                            - To mix single and mass events
                            - To mix hearsay with real proofs

                            2. I found words that Beevor’s book is based on Russian and German archives but I didn’t understand what did he find in these archives.

                            Beevor could get letters from 1000 rape victims but it is not proof that rapes were always and everywhere and to be base for 2 million digit.

                            Opinion of doctor about amount of rapes is not real proof because it is only opinion of doctor and it is large question how did this doctor count it.

                            Read all my earlier words in this thread, I do not want to repeat again.

                            3. Tragedy of “Wilgel Hustloff” is looked differently from Russian point of view. Marinesko is very famous Soviet commander of submarine. Sinking of “Wilgelm Gustloff” was large success of Soviet submarines.

                            Soviet submarines had unrestricted underwater war against German ships like US submarines in Pacific Ocean.

                            Germans evacuated refugees together with troops. “Wilgelm Gustloff” was very large transport with large amount of troops (including crews of submarines), Marinesko attacked “Wilgelm Gustloff’ at the night and didn’t know that ship had also very many refugees.

                            It is too simple to speak about evil Russian submarine commander who killed some thousands of civilians. In that time every German ship contained refugees together with troops, if to speak about saving of refugees so Soviet submarines had to completely stop actions against German ships in that region.

                            If to claim Marinesko for his attack of “Wilgelm Gustloff” so you also have to claim Us submarine commanders for actions against Japan ships.

                            4. And some more.

                            In USSR Soviet propaganda about WWII was following – most part of Soviet generals were great commanders, Red Army was better than Wiermacht, all German successes were result of element of surprise in 1941 and fact that Germans had superiority in amount pf planes, tanks and soldiers in main directions. We knew only about good things, many things were unknown and were called later “white places in history”. Soviet propaganda spoke about good things and didn’t speak about bad things.

                            From 1987 to start of 90th we knew truth about many bad things - GULAG, NKVD, repression of 1937-38, truth about Stalin regime, huge casualties in WWII and many other.

                            And situation was following – we knew enough about good things but didn’t know about bad things. And many people including historians and writers began to write about bad things which were unknown for public. If to read Soviet and Russian newspapers and books, to see movies of that time you will find only data about bad things – huge casualties, idiots-commanders, penal battalions, barrage troops in rear, repressions against soldiers for their talkings, transferring of former POWs from German to Soviet camps after liberation, bad relation to soldiers who cane from encirclement and so on.

                            So if to read Soviet and Russian newspapers and books and to see movies which were made from 1987 to start of 90th, you will see very bad image of Red Army in WWII.

                            People who lived outside USSR and fought against totalitarian regime in USSR (like Solgenitsyn) also wrote that facts which denounced bad things in USSR, so you also could see only bad image of Red Army.

                            Truth was average between Soviet propaganda and that bad things which became known during collapse of USSR.

                            I do not know exactly what was happened in Germany in 1945. I know that some amounts of atrocities was made but I disagree that it was so much like in Western books. And opinion of Beevor is not convincing enough for people with intellect.

                            I want to say that I know exactly that Soviet soldiers made some very good things in Germany.

                            Famous monument of Soviet warrior-liberator with child in hands in Treptow-garden is based on real event. During combat in Berlin Soviet soldier saw little German girl who cried near dead mother in small bridge between positions of Soviet and German troops. He knew that some time later tanks had to attack throw this bridge and he decided to save girl. He risked his life, creeped to girl under fire and carried her in positions of Soviet troops some minutes before attack of tanks. Soviet soldier really saved German little girl (I can to say his name and unit if anybody wants to know it)

                            I heard many stories about Soviet soldiers who helped for German woman in childbirth give birth to child in field conditions.

                            In Berlin Soviet Command used Red Army rolling kitchen for mass supply of Berlin population by food. Red Army saved life of many German civilians.

                            Soviet command ordered to nat do any atrocities against Germamn civilians, Soviet Command helped often hepled for Germans ion rear of Soviet troops. Soviet military town major of Berlin Berzarin got rank freeman of Berlin for his help for Berlin citizens in 1945.

                            In USSR there was official opinion that there was no any atrocities in Germany.

                            Some Soviet soldiers wanted to avenge but they didn’t do it when they saw real German civilians.

                            Typical picture in Soviet movie was following – Germans killed all family of soldier (wife and two children). Soldier promised to avenge and to kill such German family. In Germany soldier comes in house and sees scared German family – husband, wife and two little children. Soldier doesn’t understand what they speak, they do not understand what soldier speaks. But soldier understands that they are scared and hungry. And soldier couldn’t kill them, he opens his haversack and gives food for them. Children eat, soldier strokes their heads and cries.

                            Also Soviet propaganda showed that Soviet soldiers helped for German civilians.

                            And Soviet propaganda used that good facts about Russian soldiers which I described earlier.

                            And I NEVER heard about MASS atrocities in Germany. For long time many people denounced bad things which were unknown in Soviet time but NOBODY writes about MASS rapes and atrocities. There is generation of historians (for example, Sokolov, Beshanov) and non-historian-writers (for example, Suvorov-Rezun, Bunich) who specialized in question “what bad and ineffective was Red Army”. They write ALL bad things which they can to find. But EVEN they DIDN’T WRITE about mass rapes in Germany. I am 100% sure that they had to write about it if they could to find information about it.

                            So I can to agree about rapes in some cases but I do not agree about mass events and about huge, unreal digits.

                            And after reading of “Stalingrad” I have HARD OPINION that Beevor is anti-Russian biased writer.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Andrey


                              And Americans could stop crimes with power of weapon; I do not suppose that to shoot some soldiers-criminals was crime. Soviet command could only to say “Thanks” for such actions.

                              Are you suggesting that American soldiers should have shot and killed any Soviet soldiers they found raping German women ???

                              World War III here we come.
                              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tigersqn
                                Are you suggesting that American soldiers should have shot and killed any Soviet soldiers they found raping German women ???

                                World War III here we come.
                                Yes, I suppose they could do it.

                                Of course, they had to try to stop it without using weapon firstly.

                                Any Soviet soldier who raped woman was criminal. Rape is very hard crime in Russia (and in Soviet Union).

                                I suppose that Americans could to explain their actions later and to not have problems with Soviet Command.

                                Soviet Command had no to protect criminals.

                                But it is only in case if it was true facts.

                                Comment

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