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  • #91
    Originally posted by Tigersqn
    Can I help it if your ridiculous statements are funny?
    Well, you could seek medical help...

    Up to you, basically.
    Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Tigersqn
      For one who pretends to be a Russian history guru, the ignorance displayed in the above statement is astounding.
      See, the Estonian guy is smarter than you. He corrected himself, you didn't manage.
      Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

      Comment


      • #93
        TBH we don't know for sure who executed the Poles. Might have been the Red Army as well. All sorts of new information about the Katyn forest seem to pop up all the time.

        Comment


        • #94
          yes, they have

          Where, when?

          BTW this looks like another excuse - seems like Russians do need excuses

          Nope. Just my personal opinion. I don't believe in idiotic apologies from people who didn't do it to people who didn't suffer.

          Oddly enough thenever the issue of apologising for Soviet atrocities come up, the Russian counterargument seems to be that many more Russians suffered even more horrible fate at the hands of fellow Russians. If it wasn't an excuse why did you bring it up?

          To illustrate my point of tiger's anti-Russian bias. This was not a comment on the need to apologize or not apologize to Poles. The fact that I think apologies are unnecessary is a separate issue.

          Admitting bad things done to neighbours and apologising for them is a good way to amend past injusticies and a path to better relationship.

          You have a fairy tale view of international relations. If this is the kind of "international law experts" they make in Estonia...

          I am sorry, but the Soviet "exhaustive" investigations during Hrustsev time weren't really that convincing. Russia reluctantly admitted that it had fired the Mainila shots itself only in 1989, was the Katyn admission in 1990? Where are the Russian truth or reconciliation commissions? Countries with troubled pasts have found such very helpful. Maybe Russia should try it?

          Like I said, you need to read more. There are new books coming out every year. If you can't read Russian, you have a problem. But try to keep it private, rather than display it here.
          Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by pp(est)
            TBH we don't know for sure who executed the Poles. Might have been the Red Army as well. All sorts of new information about the Katyn forest seem to pop up all the time.
            WE do know. YOU don't.
            Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Oleg
              See, the Estonian guy is smarter than you. He corrected himself, you didn't manage.
              I never claimed to be smarter than him, or anyone else for that matter; but if you really want to get picky, the Independent Medical Commission which investigated the incident(s) in 1943 concluded the Poles were killed in either April-May 1941 or August-September 1941, which probably means the GPU, precursor of the NKVD, killed the 4134 Poles found at Katyn; though over 10000 more who were in Soviet hands remain unaccounted for.

              Happy now??
              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Tigersqn
                I never claimed to be smarter than him, or anyone else for that matter; but if you really want to get picky, the Independent Medical Commission which investigated the incident(s) in 1943 concluded the Poles were killed in either April-May 1941 or August-September 1941, which probably means the GPU, precursor of the NKVD, killed the 4134 Poles found at Katyn; though over 10000 more who were in Soviet hands remain unaccounted for.

                Happy now??
                Well, considering that our knowledge of the events advanced very considerably since 1943, you will forgive me if I don't take the above seriously.
                Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Oleg

                  To illustrate my point of tiger's anti-Russian bias.
                  1.Because I don't think of Zhukov as a brilliant general??

                  2.Or is it because I believe the innumerable reports of Soviet soldiers raping and/or killing German women in Germany??

                  3.Or is it because of the proven Soviet liability for the Katyn massacre??



                  1. Debatable, admittedly; but this is my OPINION. Something everyone is entitled to. Vasilevsky and N.F Vatutin were much better IMO.

                  2. Again debatable, though the available evidence supports my argument.

                  3. Proven. Without a doubt.


                  I also freely admit that Canadian soldiers executed German POWs in Normandy in WW II. I suppose this proves I have an anti-Canadian bias?:P

                  I also believe the Germans killed as many as 6 million Jews in WW II. Again, I suppose this proves I have an anti-German bias?:P

                  I also believe numerous reports of Americans killing Korean civilians in 1950-1953. Again, I suppose this proves I have an anti-American bias?:P

                  Damn. I must hate everybody.
                  Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Oleg
                    Well, considering that our knowledge of the events advanced very considerably since 1943, you will forgive me if I don't take the above seriously.

                    If you want to ignore historical fact, that is your affair. Nevertheless, the Soviet culpability in the Katyn massacre was clearly established in 1943.
                    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Oleg
                      yes, they have

                      Where, when?
                      http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...529_71294.html

                      http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/eu...land.memorial/


                      Originally posted by Oleg
                      Oddly enough thenever the issue of apologising for Soviet atrocities come up, the Russian counterargument seems to be that many more Russians suffered even more horrible fate at the hands of fellow Russians. If it wasn't an excuse why did you bring it up?

                      To illustrate my point of tiger's anti-Russian bias. This was not a comment on the need to apologize or not apologize to Poles. The fact that I think apologies are unnecessary is a separate issue.
                      You are hardly the only one doing this. It is pretty much the staple Russian excuse.

                      Originally posted by Oleg
                      Admitting bad things done to neighbours and apologising for them is a good way to amend past injusticies and a path to better relationship.

                      You have a fairy tale view of international relations. If this is the kind of "international law experts" they make in Estonia...
                      I am not an international law expert. I am a business law expert. I do know something about international law though.

                      Originally posted by Oleg
                      Like I said, you need to read more. There are new books coming out every year. If you can't read Russian, you have a problem. But try to keep it private, rather than display it here.
                      I know, I know, the propaganda rays, truth can only be read in Russian, the latin alphabet is already part of my western indoctrination inhibiting me to understand greater wisdom.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tigersqn
                        If you want to ignore historical fact, that is your affair. Nevertheless, the Soviet culpability in the Katyn massacre was clearly established in 1943.
                        Historical facts were not established by Nazi propagandists, whose findings you are repeating. Historical facts were established by going to the Soviet archives.

                        The only thing Goebbels's department got got right was that the Poles were executed by NKVD (after all, he had first hand knowledge Germans didn't do it).

                        But the fact that you are basing your claims solely on Nazi war time propaganda is very revealing.
                        Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

                        Comment


                        • http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...529_71294.html

                          http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/eu...land.memorial/


                          What does that have to do with anything? Did the Poles apologize for the murder of Red Army POWs in 1920?

                          You are hardly the only one doing this. It is pretty much the staple Russian excuse.

                          Excuse for what? I am merely pointing out that you are an anti-Russian propagandist. I am not excusing anything.

                          I am not an international law expert. I am a business law expert. I do know something about international law though.

                          Clearly, your knowledge of international law is insufficient. Work on it.

                          I know, I know, the propaganda rays, truth can only be read in Russian, the latin alphabet is already part of my western indoctrination inhibiting me to understand greater wisdom.

                          First of all, I disagree about your belonging to Western civ. You sound a little too pathetic for that. So it's not "western" indoctrination -- it's your Estonian nationalist indoctrination.

                          Secondly, you need some work on your reading skills. You confessed ignorance aboout the investigation of Stalin era crimes. I pointed out that such investigations are published very frequently. In Russian. There are some English, but their quality is not as good, for obvious reasons. So, if you don't access to good sources, don't bother to argue.
                          Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tigersqn
                            1.Because I don't think of Zhukov as a brilliant general??

                            2.Or is it because I believe the innumerable reports of Soviet soldiers raping and/or killing German women in Germany??

                            3.Or is it because of the proven Soviet liability for the Katyn massacre??
                            I already explained the reasoning behind this speculation of mine. It consisted of two points. If you didn't understand it, maybe this will help: http://www.hop.com/
                            Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

                            Comment


                            • As a matter of fact, I can add a third point: relying exclusively on Nazi sources to form an opinion.
                              Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tigersqn

                                Damn. I must hate everybody.
                                Please find a good psychiatrist.

                                On a more serious note, let's test this. Previous, you claimed that "The image of the Red Army soldier is by and large a result of their behavior as they overran the eastern regions of Germany and East Prussia in 1945."

                                Now, are you willing to state that the image of Canadian and American soldiers "is by and large a result of" the atrocities you just alleged they committed?
                                Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

                                Comment

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