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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dingo
    Price is in Germany 35-50 for a new game - 1/10th buys it for that price, the rest either copies , buys a secnd-hand example or just waits up to two years when it's down to 2-10 $.
    To copy PC-game is illegal action - ;-).

    Problem is that people in Russia has relatively low salary in $. I have 200-250$ for a month. Nobody is able to buy PC-games with West cost.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dingo
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    I live in Russia and it is very expensive for Russia.

    Do you agree to buy PC games for 30-50$ for one game like in West? No, Russian price is 3$ for game.

    Price is in Germany 35-50 for a new game - 1/10th buys it for that price, the rest either copies , buys a secnd-hand example or just waits up to two years when it's down to 2-10 $.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...

    Originally posted by hogdriver
    Re: Re: Re: ...

    quote:Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti
    Did you even know that the preliminary strikes by SAF, planned to destroy German planes at airfields, were an utter failure?





    My understanding is that, while certainly many units along the East Front were surprised, others did not get airborne because they were not released and local commanders were afraid to take the inititiative themselve, for fear of the repercussions.
    Sorry, I didn't understand what are you talking about. Do you speak about actions of German aircraft in airfields under Soviet Air attacks?

    Leave a comment:


  • hogdriver
    replied
    Re: Re: Re: Re: ...

    Re: Re: Re: ...

    quote:Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti
    Did you even know that the preliminary strikes by SAF, planned to destroy German planes at airfields, were an utter failure?



    Originally posted by Andrey
    Yes, I know about this.

    I never said that Soviet Air Forces won ALL single combats,Soviet Air Forces won BATTLE.

    According my source most part of attempts of Luftwaffe to bomb rears of Soviet troops before beginning of "Zitadel" were repeled.

    According my source Germans won some first combats on 5 and 6 of July but later Soviet Air Forces changed tactic and began to win. For 4 first days of advance (5-8 of July) both sides lost more than 500 planes (every side), Germans could to fight in Air with such casualties only two more days, later amount of flights of Luftwaffe was decreasing constantly because of shortage of planes and pilots.
    My understanding is that, while certainly many units along the East Front were surprised, others did not get airborne because they were not released and local commanders were afraid to take the inititiative themselve, for fear of the repercussions.

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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas
    Yep, I have the same info. If to follow German reports about destroyed Russian planes they did eliminated all the Soviet aviation for two or three times

    In reality much soviet planes which were reported to be destroyed even if they were terrible damaged easily were repaired for several days or less by Russian services.

    For example, I personally saw a photo of Soviet plane after landing. It almost had no tail, but a few days later it again was operable :chair: ->
    Also I read in one source about group of German pilots in North Africa. They flew in mission, shot ammo in the land and then reported that they shot down some amount British planes!!! One German pilot confirmed words of other, everyone was glad. If anyone is interesting, I can to say you their names and unit (I have this information at home).

    Also I read that after war West Allies decided to check data about victories of most famous German aces who fought in West Front. Only some pilots (Priller, for example) had 100% confirmed by West sources victories, average amount of victories confirmed by West sources was 40-80% (I do not remember concrete digits so it canbe mistake) from amount of counted by Germans victories.

    And I spoke not only about heavy damaged planes which flew in mission later.

    Sometimes one destroyed plane was counted for some pilots simultaneously, sometimes plane had only light damages (Germans photo camera could to shoot only hitting not scale of damage from hitting). German aces often used tactic "shoot and run away", in this case it was too difficult to see what was happened with your victim after your attack, they could to register only fact that bullets and shells hited enemy plane.

    In Soviet Air Forces in start of war pilots had only that victories which were confirmed by land troops. Pokryshkin's list of victories doesn't contain some planes which he shot down over enemy territory.

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    In my first words I spoke about German losses and German planes which crashed during landing.

    I read in many sources (inc. West) that Germans were not-correct in counting of destroyed enemy planes. For example, during battle of Britain German pilots counted 2 or 3 times more than real amount of destroyed British planes.
    Yep, I have the same info. If to follow German reports about destroyed Russian planes they did eliminated all the Soviet aviation for two or three times

    In reality much soviet planes which were reported to be destroyed even if they were terrible damaged easily were repaired for several days or less by Russian services.

    For example, I personally saw a photo of Soviet plane after landing. It almost had no tail, but a few days later it again was operable :chair: ->

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Txemapamundi
    You got the first part right, damaged planes written off later wouldn't be counted as combat losses, but this begs the question of why was the plane written off: because you need it for spares? because it couldn't be repaired? and after all it brought its pilot back, didn't it? It's a question of criteria not of liying.

    On the second part, you are wrong. Enemy planes brought down behind German lines required confirmation of the wreckage, planes brought down behind enemy lines required at least 1 other pilot to testify that the planes went down in flames, exploded, or was left in an unflyable condition. Post war research indicates that German claims and actual losses were quite close, and certainly were more accurate than those of the Western allies.
    In my first words I spoke about German losses and German planes which crashed during landing.

    I read in many sources (inc. West) that Germans were not-correct in counting of destroyed enemy planes. For example, during battle of Britain German pilots counted 2 or 3 times more than real amount of destroyed British planes.

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by Oleg
    I'm not sure about the publisher. It's not in stores yet. People on VIF2 bought themselves advance copies. It's supposed to be the ULTIMATE source on the air battle over Kursk.

    http://vif2ne.ru:80/nvk/forum/0/archive/668/668783.htm
    500R isn't much price if the book is really good.
    If I see it I'd like to buy.
    I bought the 1st volume of Tank Encyclopedy for 600R+

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by Txemapamundi
    I don't think the Germans, being Germans, are going to alter official documents, but it is likely that a different definition of shot down applies. ...
    I learnt this from the man who professionally is occupied with this subject and directly works with raw documents

    Leave a comment:


  • JMS
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    Agree. I heard that Luftwaffe made actions for hiding of high casualties. For example, planes which were damaged in combat and broke during landing were not counted as combat losses. Or if unit had too large casualties for one day these too high casualties were counted as casualties for some days, in this case averagecasualties were not so high.

    And Luftwaffe didn't ask acknowledge of land troops for confirming of Air Victories of pilots (like in Soviet Air Forces), Luftwaffe didn't check data about victories of famous pilots.
    You got the first part right, damaged planes written off later wouldn't be counted as combat losses, but this begs the question of why was the plane written off: because you need it for spares? because it couldn't be repaired? and after all it brought its pilot back, didn't it? It's a question of criteria not of liying.

    On the second part, you are wrong. Enemy planes brought down behind German lines required confirmation of the wreckage, planes brought down behind enemy lines required at least 1 other pilot to testify that the planes went down in flames, exploded, or was left in an unflyable condition. Post war research indicates that German claims and actual losses were quite close, and certainly were more accurate than those of the Western allies.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Oleg
    I would really advise against using German sources to determine the breakdown by loss type. Most losses are reported as "not returned", and not whether it was shot down by ground fire or enemy fighters.

    What's needed is to use the combo of sources from both sides to figure out how each individual plane was lost.
    Agree. I heard that Luftwaffe made actions for hiding of high casualties. For example, planes which were damaged in combat and broke during landing were not counted as combat losses. Or if unit had too large casualties for one day these too high casualties were counted as casualties for some days, in this case averagecasualties were not so high.

    And Luftwaffe didn't ask acknowledge of land troops for confirming of Air Victories of pilots (like in Soviet Air Forces), Luftwaffe didn't check data about victories of famous pilots.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Oleg
    It's actually cheap by Western standards.

    I live in Russia and it is very expensive for Russia.

    Do you agree to buy PC games for 30-50$ for one game like in West? No, Russian price is 3$ for game.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oleg
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    500 roubles (17$) for 200 pages book!!!

    It is robbery!!!

    Average price of well printed book (500 pages) is 150-200 roubles in shop.
    It's actually cheap by Western standards.

    Plus, the price is tentative. Once it goes on sale, it will probably be a little less expensive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Oleg
    I'm not sure about the publisher. It's not in stores yet. People on VIF2 bought themselves advance copies. It's supposed to be the ULTIMATE source on the air battle over Kursk.

    http://vif2ne.ru:80/nvk/forum/0/archive/668/668783.htm
    500 roubles (17$) for 200 pages book!!!

    It is robbery!!!

    Average price of well printed book (500 pages) is 150-200 roubles in shop.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oleg
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas
    Where it was published? In Tekhnika-Molodezhi?
    I'm not sure about the publisher. It's not in stores yet. People on VIF2 bought themselves advance copies. It's supposed to be the ULTIMATE source on the air battle over Kursk.

    http://vif2ne.ru:80/nvk/forum/0/archive/668/668783.htm

    Leave a comment:

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