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  • Kursk logistics

    I've read that the Russian logistics system wasn't very good and that troops often depended on the land itself to get enough food.

    The Kursk salient was easy to supply by railway, but railways were vulnerable. Now I wonder why the Germans did not simply fight for regional air superiority and afterwards hunted for all trains & trucks and bombed the railways with heavy bombs (big craters) to make them unusable during night.

    The logistical situation for more than half a million soldiers would have become difficult at least.

  • #2
    Re: Kursk logistics

    Originally posted by Dingo

    Now I wonder why the Germans did not simply fight for regional air superiority and afterwards hunted for all trains & trucks and bombed the railways with heavy bombs (big craters) to make them unusable during night.

    By summer of '43, Allied air power was starting to make it's impact felt and restructuring of aircraft manufacturing had not yet been fully implemented by Speer. For Germany to have transferred the required aircraft to the eastern front would have left the Fatherland vulnerable to Allied air attack.
    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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    • #3
      not really

      The overall situation was like you described, but the germans were able to beat the Red Air Force over the Kursk salient; they did so.

      Therefore, I think they would have been able to execute such a interdiction campaign.

      Even if no decisive ground battle followed, the Russains would have lost many locomotives and trucks. That would have reduced their mid-term offensive power.

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      • #4
        Re: not really

        Originally posted by Dingo
        The overall situation was like you described, but the germans were able to beat the Red Air Force over the Kursk salient; they did so.

        Therefore, I think they would have been able to execute such a interdiction campaign.

        Even if no decisive ground battle followed, the Russains would have lost many locomotives and trucks. That would have reduced their mid-term offensive power.
        You are wrong.

        According my information Soviet Air Forces broke Germans in huge Air Battle over Kursk, here is truth, Germans had huge casualties in the Air. Germans had no supremacy in Air over Kursk region so they couldn't shoot many locomotives and trucks.

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        • #5
          ...

          I'm short on time, but as I remember the history, the Red Air Force suffered heavily due to completely inadequate fighter pilot training and lost hundreds of aircraft on the very first day while flying their assaults.

          While at least Stalin's official history isn't very credible, both battle damage assessments are not reliable at all.

          The Luftwaffe was certainly defeated in a sense that it was less able to replace the lost crews, but fro what I remember to have read, I doubt that there was a Russian air superiority during the battle.
          I remember that the extreme fighter pilot losses caused quite extreme reactions in STAWKA.

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          • #6
            Re: ...

            Originally posted by Dingo
            I'm short on time, but as I remember the history, the Red Air Force suffered heavily due to completely inadequate fighter pilot training and lost hundreds of aircraft on the very first day while flying their assaults.

            While at least Stalin's official history isn't very credible, both battle damage assessments are not reliable at all.

            The Luftwaffe was certainly defeated in a sense that it was less able to replace the lost crews, but fro what I remember to have read, I doubt that there was a Russian air superiority during the battle.
            I remember that the extreme fighter pilot losses caused quite extreme reactions in STAWKA.
            I never said that Sovit Air Forces got Air Supremacy over Kursk. Soviet Air Forces won this Air Battle for many weeks air combats (these combats began many days BEFORE beginning of land actions). Soviet Air Forces didn't let for Germans to have supremacy over Kursk battle territory (and to shoot locomotives and trucks if to return for first question), it was large air massacre and Luftwaffe got extremely large (for Luftwaffe) casualties.

            Soviet Air Forces also had large casualties (but it was not so large like West public suppose) and, of course, STAVKA was not glad by these casualties. But quality of Soviet pilots was good in that time, quality of Luftwaffe pilots was less than in start of war. Skill of average Luftwaffe pilot in that time was approximatey equal with skill of average Soviet pilot.

            Casualties were approximately equal but you are right that "The Luftwaffe was certainly defeated in a sense that it was less able to replace the lost crews...". And I want to add - Luftwaffe could not to get Air Supremacy (like in 1941 and 1942), to make effective actions against land troops and rears of Soviet troops and to prevent actions of Soviet Air Forces (especially famous IL-2) against German troops.

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            • #7
              And btw, you may see the number of Anti-aircraft divisions in the Soviet units deployed on the Kursk salient.
              Hope you realize that they were not only drinking vodka
              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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              • #8
                Re: Re: ...

                Originally posted by Andrey
                Soviet Air Forces won this Air Battle for many weeks air combats (these combats began many days BEFORE beginning of land actions).
                Did you even know that the preliminary strikes by SAF, planned to destroy German planes at airfields, were an utter failure?
                “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by amvas
                  And btw, you may see the number of Anti-aircraft divisions in the Soviet units deployed on the Kursk salient.
                  Hope you realize that they were not only drinking vodka
                  They may as well, historically AA accounts for 1-2% of the raiding force...
                  www.tdg.nu

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                  • #10
                    Re: Re: Re: ...

                    Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti
                    Did you even know that the preliminary strikes by SAF, planned to destroy German planes at airfields, were an utter failure?
                    They did come close though.

                    On some bases, German a/c took off as the Soviets were approaching their airfields.
                    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Re: ...

                      Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti
                      Did you even know that the preliminary strikes by SAF, planned to destroy German planes at airfields, were an utter failure?
                      Yes, I know about this.

                      I never said that Soviet Air Forces won ALL single combats,Soviet Air Forces won BATTLE.

                      According my source most part of attempts of Luftwaffe to bomb rears of Soviet troops before beginning of "Zitadel" were repeled.

                      According my source Germans won some first combats on 5 and 6 of July but later Soviet Air Forces changed tactic and began to win. For 4 first days of advance (5-8 of July) both sides lost more than 500 planes (every side), Germans could to fight in Air with such casualties only two more days, later amount of flights of Luftwaffe was decreasing constantly because of shortage of planes and pilots.

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                      • #12
                        Andrey, have you seen the new book by Khazanov about the air battle at Kursk?
                        Kak nyne sbiraetsia veschii Oleg otmstit' nerazumnym ... well, you know who you are :)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Oleg
                          Andrey, have you seen the new book by Khazanov about the air battle at Kursk?
                          I am not large specialist in East Front events, I have only common impression (I read more about actions of Allies in WWII)

                          My source is Korniukhin G.F. "Soviet fighters in Great Patriotic War"

                          http://militera.lib.ru/research/kornyukhin/index.html

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Txemapamundi
                            They may as well, historically AA accounts for 1-2% of the raiding force...
                            And I've heard the opposite discussion that German air forces had much more losses from AA defences....
                            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Oleg
                              Andrey, have you seen the new book by Khazanov about the air battle at Kursk?
                              Where it was published? In Tekhnika-Molodezhi?
                              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                              Comment

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