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Sovjet Forces - Sevastopol June / July 1942

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  • #46
    Amvas, I have some remarks.

    About Krylov's data:

    1. About military ranks which you use

    Captain 1st class (about "Ne tron' menya") - in Russian it is Navy "Kapitan pervogo ranga" - it is analog of Army "polkovnik" (Army "colonel" in West terms)

    Senior leutenant (about pilots) - in Russian it is "Starshiy leitenent" - rank between "leitenent" and "Kapitan" (Army rank between "leitenant" and "captain" in West terms)

    Lt. Captain (about "Ne tron' menya") - wrong name - in Russian it is Navy "Kapitan-leitenant" - it is analog of Army "Kapitan" (Army "captain" in West manner)

    2. ShKAS was 20mm plane gun, not machine gun (MG) as you wrote.

    3. It is VERY strange for me that amount of planes is measured in DOZENS. Nobody uses DOZEN term for counting of military technics, TENS term is used for these purposes.

    4. "1st Separate Coastal Artillery Battalion was reorganised into the Guards one" - it is more correct to say "1st Separate Coastal Artillery Battalion got rank Guards", I do not suppose that it were some reorganizations in that unit as result of making Guards unit, this unit only got new word in unit's name and every soldier had to get "Guard" sign.

    About Moshchansky:

    I do not know who is it but his information is very close to information from Soviet "History of WWII in 12 volumes" sometimes.

    1. In Soviet "History of WWII in 12 volumes" in article about Sevastopol defense ALL generals (general-mayors, for example) were called general. And it is not right. Novikov had rank general-mayor ("general-major" in West term), not general.

    But in your data Novikov is general, Kolomiets is general-mayor. Both they were general-mayors.

    It is equal in one phrase to say "officer Petrov and leitenant Ivanov", it is wrong.

    In any case "general armii" (simple "general") was too high rank for division commander (in that time Zhukov had rank "general armii" or simple "general").

    Soviet generals (from low to high):
    - general-mayor,
    - generak-leitenant,
    - general-polkovnik,
    - general armii,
    - marshall.

    2. Amount of guns and mortars is disputable.

    It looks like it is amount ONLY guns wothont counting of mortars.

    I also read memoirs of Kuznetsov, he also (like Large Soviet Encyclopedia) speaks that common amount of guns and mortats was more than 1500-1700 (I do not remember exact digit).

    3. Before third asault 139th Brigade couldn't to be in reserve becouse it arrived in Sevastopol in Navy ships on on 22 of June, 2 weeks after start of 3rd Assault.

    4. About amount of Marines units.

    Moshchansky writes about "7 Rifle Divisions and 3 Marines Brigades".

    In that time SDD had 7en, 8ht, 9th Marines Brigades (3), 7 Rifle Divisions and 79th Naval Rifle Brigades.

    It looks like he didn't count 79th Brigade as Marines and suppose that it was usual infantry. But in this case in saying about large units he had to say "7 Rifle Divisions, 1 Rifle brigade, 3 Marines Brigades", to forget to mention one brigade in list of units is large mistake. He doesn't write such so I can draw conclusion that he made mistake, forgot 9th Marines brigade and counted 79th Brigade was Marines Brigades.

    So in my opinion it is more correct to say "7 Rifle Divisions and 4 (not 3) Marines brigade".

    And in Large Soviet Encyclopedia (most serious Soviert source) amount of troops is also "7 Rifle Divisions, 4 Marines Brigades, 3 Marines Regiments".

    I do not know about 3 Marines regiments (there are data about 2 Marines regiment, third (1st Sevestopol Marines Regiment) according last Amvas data became 8th Marines Brigade, it explains how Gorpistchenko, commander of this regiment in the autumn of 1941, became commander of 8th Marines brigade in June of 1942).

    PS: I shall become expert in Sevastoplo defense - :-).

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Andrey
      [B]Amvas, I have some remarks.

      About Krylov's data:

      1. About military ranks which you use

      Captain 1st class (about "Ne tron' menya") - in Russian it is Navy "Kapitan pervogo ranga" - it is analog of Army "polkovnik" (Army "colonel" in West terms)


      Senior leutenant (about pilots) - in Russian it is "Starshiy leitenent" - rank between "leitenent" and "Kapitan" (Army rank between "leitenant" and "captain" in West terms)

      Lt. Captain (about "Ne tron' menya") - wrong name - in Russian it is Navy "Kapitan-leitenant" - it is analog of Army "Kapitan" (Army "captain" in West manner)
      I simply used the Britain equivalents of Soviet ranks

      2. ShKAS was 20mm plane gun, not machine gun (MG) as you wrote.
      You are wrong. You mixed it with 20mm ShVAK gun.
      ShKAS was MG

      3. It is VERY strange for me that amount of planes is measured in DOZENS. Nobody uses DOZEN term for counting of military technics, TENS term is used for these purposes.

      In english speaking countries dozens are more wide term. thats why I used them, but not our common one "tens"

      4. "1st Separate Coastal Artillery Battalion was reorganised into the Guards one" - it is more correct to say "1st Separate Coastal Artillery Battalion got rank Guards", I do not suppose that it were some reorganizations in that unit as result of making Guards unit, this unit only got new word in unit's name and every soldier had to get "Guard" sign.
      No reorganisation, as there were no time for this. It was noly assigned the status of the guards one.

      About Moshchansky:

      I do not know who is it but his information is very close to information from Soviet "History of WWII in 12 volumes" sometimes.

      1. In Soviet "History of WWII in 12 volumes" in article about Sevastopol defense ALL generals (general-mayors, for example) were called general. And it is not right. Novikov had rank general-mayor ("general-major" in West term), not general.

      But in your data Novikov is general, Kolomiets is general-mayor. Both they were general-mayors.

      It is equal in one phrase to say "officer Petrov and leitenant Ivanov", it is wrong.

      In any case "general armii" (simple "general") was too high rank for division commander (in that time Zhukov had rank "general armii" or simple "general").

      Soviet generals (from low to high):
      - general-mayor,
      - general-leitenant,
      - general-polkovnik,
      - general armii,
      - marshall.
      Agree that both were General-majors
      Agree that both were General-majors

      2. Amount of guns and mortars is disputable.

      It looks like it is amount ONLY guns wiothont counting of mortars.

      I also read memoirs of Kuznetsov, he also (like Large Soviet Encyclopedia) speaks that common amount of guns and mortats was more than 1500-1700 (I do not remember exact digit).
      I only cited Moshchansky in this issue


      3. Before third asault 139th Brigade couldn't to be in reserve becouse it arrived in Sevastopol in Navy ships on on 22 of June, 2 weeks after start of 3rd Assault.
      It was...


      4. About amount of Marines units.

      Moshchansky writes about "7 Rifle Divisions and 3 Marines Brigades".

      In that time SDD had 7en, 8ht, 9th Marines Brigades (3), 7 Rifle Divisions and 79th Naval Rifle Brigades.

      It looks like he didn't count 79th Brigade as Marines and suppose that it was usual infantry. But in this case in saying about large units he had to say "7 Rifle Divisions, 1 Rifle brigade, 3 Marines Brigades", to forget to mention one brigade in list of units is large mistake. He doesn't write such so I can draw conclusion that he made mistake, forgot 9th Marines brigade and counted 79th Brigade was Marines Brigades.

      So in my opinion it is more correct to say "7 Rifle Divisions and 4 (not 3) Marines brigade".

      And in Large Soviet Encyclopedia (most serious Soviert source) amount of troops is also "7 Rifle Divisions, 4 Marines Brigades, 3 Marines Regiments".

      I do not know about 3 Marines regiments (there are data about 2 Marines regiment, third (1st Sevestopol Marines Regiment) according last Amvas data became 8th Marines Brigade, it explains how Gorpistchenko, commander of this regiment in the autumn of 1941, became commander of 8th Marines brigade in June of 1942).

      PS: I shall become expert in Sevastoplo defense - :-).
      The 79th Naval Brigade was not Marine one. Look what I have writtein above. It was a common rifle brigade equipped by 1/3 with sailors

      Note that unit names meant nothing that time, as some of them could exist only on paper
      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

      Comment


      • #48
        Answer for Amvas:

        1. ShKAS, ShVAK... Really, it may be mistake from my side.

        Usually nobody speaks type of MG, there is only mentions about calibr of MG (MG 7,62 mm, MG 7,92 mm and so on).

        2. About military ranks.

        Why British equiavalents? Trommelfeuer is German (Korvetten-kapitan, fregaten-kapitan and so on)... And also there are US ranks, which has some differences in Navy with British (as I know)...

        In any case you didn't speak that you use British equavalent so there are possible misunderstandings.

        In my opinion, it is more correct to say Russian rank and their INFANTRY equivalent in common used rank terms, in this case everyone will understand correctly what it was.

        And when you say "Lt. Captain (lieutenant commander)" what did you speak about? I am not specialist in non-Russian Navy ranks. You used two ranks, one British and what was other?

        And Trommelfeuer in firsrt message used RUSSIAN ranks which were typed by latin letters.

        3. About DOZENS...

        Trommelfeuer is German - ;-).

        And some dozens is more than some tens - ;-).

        And you didn't recount km in miles when you write about length of frontline of Defense sectors - ;-).

        In my opinion it is better to give Russian measuring terms, it is international values (it is not like old "sazhen' " or "arshin"), foreigners will understand it correctly without problems.

        4. About Marines.

        OK, but if to suppose that 79th Brigade was not Marines so we need to count it as infantry so list of main forces of SDD before 3rd assault has to be following:
        "7 Rifle Divisions, 1 Rifle Brigade, 3 Marines Brigades".

        PS: It is remarks which can be useful (as I believe)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Andrey
          Answer for Amvas:

          1. ShKAS, ShVAK... Really, it may be mistake from my side.

          Usually nobody speaks type of MG, there is only mentions about calibr of MG (MG 7,62 mm, MG 7,92 mm and so on).
          Again you are wrong. :nonono: :P Usually in really good books the type of weapons is given. ShKAS, UBT MGs, ShVAK, NS-37 gun or others

          2. About military ranks.

          Why British equiavalents? Trommelfeuer is German (Korvetten-kapitan, fregaten-kapitan and so on)... And also there are US ranks, which has some differences in Navy with British (as I know)...

          In any case you didn't speak that you use British equavalent so there are possible misunderstandings.

          In my opinion, it is more correct to say Russian rank and their INFANTRY equivalent in common used rank terms, in this case everyone will understand correctly what it was.

          And when you say "Lt. Captain (lieutenant commander)" what did you speak about? I am not specialist in non-Russian Navy ranks. You used two ranks, one British and what was other?
          Ok, I'll give Russian ranks too to avoid real misunderstanding :bowdown:

          3. About DOZENS...

          Trommelfeuer is German - ;-).

          And some dozens is more than some tens - ;-).

          And you didn't recount km in miles when you write about length of frontline of Defense sectors - ;-).

          In my opinion it is better to give Russian measuring terms, it is international values (it is not like old "sazhen' " or "arshin"), foreigners will understand it correctly without problems.
          In this case dozens means the same as tens anywhere, even in German. Actually I heard that there were ~93 planes, but as I'm on my workplace now, I can't confirm this


          4. About Marines.

          OK, but if to suppose that 79th Brigade was not Marines so we need to count it as infantry so list of main forces of SDD before 3rd assault has to be following:
          "7 Rifle Divisions, 1 Rifle Brigade, 3 Marines Brigades".
          I only cited Moshchansky.....

          You comments are always useful, even if they are wrong :thumb:

          PS. The 138th Rfl. Brigade's last units were transferred by Molotov cruiser and Bezuprechniy destroyer on June 16. It was set as a reservo of the 4th sector.
          Following Moschansky it was used for counter-attacks in this sector from June 18.
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by amvas
            Again you are wrong. :nonono: :P Usually in really good books the type of weapons is given. ShKAS, UBT MGs, ShVAK, NS-37 gun or others

            In this case dozens means the same as tens anywhere, even in German. Actually I heard that there were ~93 planes, but as I'm on my workplace now, I can't confirm this



            I only cited Moshchansky.....

            You comments are always useful, even if they are wrong :thumb:

            PS. The 138th Rfl. Brigade's last units were transferred by Molotov cruiser and Bezuprechniy destroyer on June 16. It was set as a reservo of the 4th sector.
            Following Moschansky it was used for counter-attacks in this sector from June 18.
            1 ShVAK, ShKAS and so on.

            Yes, in serious books every MG is called with full name. But it is only in books which describes concrete plane, or planes, or Air unit - ;-). In this case description of one plane can be many-pages article.

            But in serious books which describes common actions in current battle nobody writes for many pages about construction of every plane.
            And if there is comparison, for example, of Spitfire and BF-109E, so in such books there are only words that "Spitfire had 8x7,62 mm MG and Bf-109E had 1x20mm gun and 2x7,92 mm MG" WITHOUT concrete types of MG (data are given from memory, so it is possible wrong).

            2. I do not believe that in the West people speaks "some dozens" instead of "some tens" - ;-).

            3. Who is Moshchanskiy? In Russia every book has author and book name - ;-).

            4. 138th Bragade couldn't to be in reserve BEFORE 3rg assault because there was no this Brigade in SDD in that time.

            If it is about time AFTER start of 3rd assault so it is useful to write also about 142th Brigade which arrived some days later than 138th Brigade.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Andrey
              1 ShVAK, ShKAS and so on.

              Yes, in serious books every MG is called with full name. But it is only in books which describes concrete plane, or planes, or Air unit - ;-). In this case description of one plane can be many-pages article.

              But in serious books which describes common actions in current battle nobody writes for many pages about construction of every plane.
              And if there is comparison, for example, of Spitfire and BF-109E, so in such books there are only words that "Spitfire had 8x7,62 mm MG and Bf-109E had 1x20mm gun and 2x7,92 mm MG" WITHOUT concrete types of MG (data are given from memory, so it is possible wrong).
              In Krylov's book the MG type was mentioned

              2. I do not believe that in the West people speaks "some dozens" instead of "some tens" - ;-).
              You may ask them
              3. Who is Moshchanskiy? In Russia every book has author and book name - ;-).
              Military Chronicle. "The battle for Crimea"

              4. 138th Bragade couldn't to be in reserve BEFORE 3rg assault because there was no this Brigade in SDD in that time.
              I never said that it was in reserve before the 3rd assault. It was in a reserve while it for some days. The command didn't want to throw their last reserve immideately in the battle.

              If it is about time AFTER start of 3rd assault so it is useful to write also about 142th Brigade which arrived some days later than 138th Brigade.
              I did mentioned it above too......
              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

              Comment


              • #52
                Thanks again for all the info! :thumb:

                Here's a very nice comparative table of wwII ranks:

                Ranks

                Regards, Sven

                P.S. If you find the time, could you take a look at this russian article: On the role of the "Inquisitor of the Red Army" in the disaster of the Crimean Front during May 1942., and perhaps translate some useful info ?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Trommelfeuer
                  Thanks again for all the info! :thumb:
                  P.S. If you find the time, could you take a look at this russian article: On the role of the "Inquisitor of the Red Army" in the disaster of the Crimean Front during May 1942., and perhaps translate some useful info ?
                  It is too large amount of data.

                  Do you interesting of Mehlis commonly, about his actions in Kerch operation or about actions Of Red Army inKerch operation?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Andrey
                    It is too large amount of data.

                    Do you interesting of Mehlis commonly, about his actions in Kerch operation or about actions Of Red Army inKerch operation?
                    I thought the article contains also information about Sevastopol in June 42...I guess I just misunderstood the babelfish translation! Sorry!

                    Regards, Sven

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Trommelfeuer
                      I thought the article contains also information about Sevastopol in June 42...I guess I just misunderstood the babelfish translation! Sorry!

                      Regards, Sven
                      Lev Zaharovich Mehlis was one of most evil figures in USSR.

                      He was folower of idea to punish commanders who couldn't to win.

                      He was real "enemy of the people".

                      He was represenative of Stavka of Supreme command in Soviet troops in Crimea.

                      HE was one of main of reasons of large defeat in Kerch in May of 1942 and it is related with Sevastopol defense in June of 1942 only because after defeat of Red Army in Kerch Sevastopol had no chances to win against German troops.

                      But Mehlis didn't related directly to Sevastopol defense.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Thank you very much for the explanation Andrey!

                        If I may ask another question...

                        I found this a short while ago while searching through the web:

                        The main battery of the armored train of "iron clays". Sevastopol 1942. (p. 297) ( <-- Babelfish translation )


                        source: Fortresses on the wheels: History of the armored trains

                        Here's another photo:
                        #
                        source: Sevastopol Info


                        Is this babelfish translation correct ?


                        The main battery of the armored train of "iron clays". Sevastopol 1942.

                        =

                        Главный калибр бронепоезда Железняков. Севастополь 1942г.

                        ?

                        And is "iron clays" the same as the armored train Zheleznyakov ?

                        Regards, Sven

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          The only armored train in Sevastopol was "Zheleznyakov"
                          From your text it is actually this train....
                          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Trommelfeuer
                            Thank you very much for the explanation Andrey!

                            If I may ask another question...

                            I found this a short while ago while searching through the web:

                            The main battery of the armored train of "iron clays". Sevastopol 1942. (p. 297) ( <-- Babelfish translation )


                            source: Fortresses on the wheels: History of the armored trains

                            Here's another photo:
                            #
                            source: Sevastopol Info

                            Is this babelfish translation correct ?


                            The main battery of the armored train of "iron clays". Sevastopol 1942.

                            =

                            Главный калибр бронепоезда Железняков. Севастополь 1942г.

                            ?

                            And is "iron clays" the same as the armored train Zheleznyakov ?

                            Regards, Sven
                            Name "Zheleznyakov" has part of Russian word "Zhelezo" which means "iron".

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Cool!

                              Thanks a lot amvas! What is the meaning of Zheleznyakov - How could one translate it - is "Iron Claw" close to the original meaning ?

                              Here are two more photos:

                              Мотоброневагон �За �_одину� --> ?



                              Range-finders of armored train I.I. Reznichenko and A.F. Dymchenko, 1942



                              ( same sources as above )

                              Regards, Sven

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Your translator made not completely correct translation and in other case.

                                It is more correct to say "most power gun" instead of "main battery" (word-to-word translation from Russin is "main calibr").

                                In Russin most power ship's guns are called "guns of main calibr", when ship uses most power guns in Russion it is called sometimes "to fire by main calibr guns" or even only "to fire by main calibr ".

                                Range-takers are range-finders (in my dictionary).

                                "" is very rare word construction and it means "moving armored car of train".

                                Zheleznyakov is name of Civil War hero (but I heard also Zheleznyak version of his name)

                                Comment

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