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Sovjet Forces - Sevastopol June / July 1942

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  • #16
    Thanks a lot!

    :thumb: This is excellent info Andrey! Thank you very much!

    I'll update the list right now!

    Regards, Sven


    P.S.
    "Maxim Gorki", "Malakow" and "Tscheka" are the german names for these fortifications.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Andrey

      Originally posted by Andrey
      Small additional comment:

      "Marine Rifle Brigade" is wrong term, "Rifle" word was not used in name of Marines units. So "Marine Brigade" is more correct.
      Can't agree with you, Andrey

      There were several types of Marine Brigades

      Examples:
      83rd Separate Marine Brigade (Brigada Morskoy pekhoty)
      83rd Naval Rifle Brigade (Morskaya Strelkovaya Brigada)

      The same was with the brigades mentioned above

      To my mind
      "Marine" term might be used for landing units
      "Naval" for Rifle brigades formed from common sailors
      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

      Comment


      • #18
        May be, it will be useful for you.

        Here is picture “Defense of Sevastopol”, it is symbol of Sevastopol defense in USSR and in Russia.

        And some more about Marines.

        In modern Russia Marines are elite troops.

        During WWII US marines were excellent trained soldiers who were ready for amphibious operations.

        But in 1941-42 Soviet Marines were other kind of troops.

        As I know Soviet Navy had no serious Marine troops during start of German invasion in 1941. Main actions were in land, casualties of Army were horrific and Army constantly asked reinforcements for land actions. In such conditions Navy from time to time organized brigades, regiments and battalions of Marines for actions in land together with Army.

        But these units were not real Marines. These units were composed from usual ship sailors (mechanicians, torpedo artificers and so on) which Navy could to send in land combat. Usually it were sailors of damaged or destroyed ships and sailors which were not too important in that time in their ships.

        Soviet Marines in 1941-42 practically had no infantry training. It was reason that these units had heavy, much more casualties in combats than usual infantry, it decreased effectiveness of Marines. But Marines also had some advantages. These units had much more high morale, sailors were proud that they are sailors; they looked down on usual infantry. Marines were braver, they practically didn’t surrender in hopeless situations. Marines were more firm in defense and stubborn in attack. Especially they were horrific in hand-to-hand fighting.

        They fought in traditional sailors uniform, which consisted from black bell-bottomed trousers, black sailor's jacket and sailor's striped vest. In the head they had sailor's peakless cap with name of that ship (“Tashkent”, “Svobodnyi” and so on) which crewmember they were before becoming Marine.

        I sent photo of typical marines in Sevastopol.

        Later they got usual infantry uniform but they in any case they wore sailor's striped vest under soldier's blouse. And they always dressed sailor's peakless cap instead of steel helmet before attack.

        Germans were afraid of Soviet Marines and called Soviet marines “black death” because their uniform had black color (according Soviet data - ;-)).
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #19
          Here is picture of typical Soviet Marines in Sevestopol.
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Thanks a lot!

            Originally posted by Trommelfeuer
            :thumb: This is excellent info Andrey! Thank you very much!

            I'll update the list right now!

            Regards, Sven


            P.S.
            "Maxim Gorki", "Malakow" and "Tscheka" are the german names for these fortifications.
            I heard also about Fort Stalin and Fort Sibir (Siberia).

            I tried to make more correct names (letters in words) if to speak about pronunciation.

            For example, Gorki is wrong, Gorkiy (may be, Gorikiy, I do not know how to write in English correctly some Russian sounds and letters) is more correct if to speak about Russian pronunciation.

            Malakhov (not Malakov) hill is very famous place, such places are in Sevastopol and in Stalingrad.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Re: Andrey

              Originally posted by amvas
              Can't agree with you, Andrey

              There were several types of Marine Brigades

              Examples:
              83rd Separate Marine Brigade (Brigada Morskoy pekhoty)
              83rd Naval Rifle Brigade (Morskaya Strelkovaya Brigada)

              The same was with the brigades mentioned above

              To my mind
              "Marine" term might be used for landing units
              "Naval" for Rifle brigades formed from common sailors
              You are right but....

              If we speak about Marines (morskay pehota) nobody used additional word "Rifle" in it's name. Marine is marine.

              Naval brigade (morskaya brigada) is not Marine. May be it was really Marine but there was no "Marine" word in it's name. Name "Naval Brigade" can be used for many types of troops (infantry, artillery, tanks, special forces and so on). In this case word "Rifle" is useful for understanding of Naval Brigade type.

              Comment


              • #22
                Great ! Thank you so much Andrey and amvas ! Vielen Dank!


                This is really great additional info for the Eichenbaum.org forum ! Andrey, the poster and the image of the marines are wonderful! :thumb:

                I wish you all a very nice weekend!


                ( Pavlyuchenko L.M. - the sniper 54- GO of the rifle regiment of 25-1 Chapayevskeye division, 1942. D. rymarev's Photos <-- Babelfish translation )

                photo source: Sevastopol Info

                Regards, Sven

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Re: Re: Andrey

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  You are right but....

                  If we speak about Marines (morskay pehota) nobody used additional word "Rifle" in it's name. Marine is marine.
                  Agree, but I have cited REAL names of the 83rd Marine Brigade and 83rd Naval Rifle Brigade.....

                  Naval brigade (morskaya brigada) is not Marine. May be it was really Marine but there was no "Marine" word in it's name.
                  Yep....

                  Name "Naval Brigade" can be used for many types of troops (infantry, artillery, tanks, special forces and so on). In this case word "Rifle" is useful for understanding of Naval Brigade type.
                  Again, 7,8,9 Brigades were named "Brigada Morskoy Pekhoty", but the 79th was named "Morskaya Strelkovaya Brigada"
                  If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Today I visited public library and read pair of short relatively serious articles about Sevastopol Defense.
                    1. Article about defense of Sevastopol in June 1942 in Soviet “History of Second World War:1939-1945. In 12 volumes. Vol. 5” (Istoriya Vtoroy Mirovoy Voiny)
                    2. Article “Sevastopol Defense” in Large Soviet Encyclopedia (Bolyshaya Sovietskaya Entsiklopediya)

                    Both sources had maps.

                    1. According History of WWII

                    In the start of June 1942 Soviet forces were:
                    106,000 men, 600 guns and mortars, 38 tanks, 53 ready for actions planes.

                    Maritime Army was base of Sevastopol Defense District (commander – vitse-admiral (“vice-admiral” in the West terms) Oktiabrskiy F.S.)

                    1st Defense Sector (7.5 km of frontline)
                    - commander of 109 Rifle Div. general-mayor (“general-major” in the West terms) Novikov P.G. was sector commandant.

                    109th, 388th Rile Divisions

                    2nd Defense Sector (12 km of frontline)
                    - commander of 386th Rifle Div. polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Skutel’nik N.F. was sector commandant.

                    386th Rile Division, 7en and 8ht Marines Brigades

                    3rd Defense Sector (8.5 km of frontline)
                    - commander of 25th “Chapaevskaya” Rifle Div. general-mayor (“general-major” in the West terms) Kolomiets T.K. was sector commandant.

                    25th Rile Divisions, 79 Naval Rifle Brigade, 3rd Marines Regiment, 2nd Perekopskiy Marines Regiment

                    (“Chapaevskay” – during Civil War Vasiliy Ivanovich Chapaev, famous Hero of Civil War, was commander of 25th Rifle Division. He was killed in 1919 (drowned when he was wounded and tried to swim through river under fire), in 30th years USSR made famous movie “Chapaev”, in USSR everyone saw this movie and knew who was Chapaev. “Chapaevskay” means “of Chapaev”)

                    4th Defense Sector (6 km of frontline)
                    - commander of 95th Rifle Div. polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Kapitohin A.G. was sector commandant.

                    95th, 172nd Rile Division

                    Reserve

                    345th Rifle Division of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Guz N.O.,
                    local rifle regiment of coast defense,
                    one regiment of 308 Rifle Division,
                    two separate tank battalions,
                    armored train “Zheleznyakov”.

                    In every sector rifle troops were reinforced by artillery regiments, machinegun battalions of coast defense pillboxes, batteries of antitank artillery regiments.

                    Commander of 7en Marines Brigade was polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Zhidilov E.I., 8ht Marine Brigade - polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Gorpistchenko P.F.

                    During assault some units arrived in Sevastopol by sea transport. Last unit which arrived in Sevastopol was 142nd Rifle Brigade (22-26 of June).

                    During combats for Sevastopol fought well following units:
                    456th Separate Frontier troops Regiment, Balaclava coastguard school of junior commanders (very difficult to translate, original – “Balaklavskaya morskaya pogranichnaya shkola mladshego nachsostava”), 26th Odessa Frontier detachment (difficult to translate correctly, original “Odesskiy pogranichnyi otriad”, pogranichnyi otriad was large formation of some frontier posts) and separate frontier commandant's offices (original – “pogranichnye komendatury”, it were small groups of soldiers who were under command of commandant, guarded important objects, maintained order and so on), internal troops of NKVD.

                    To the end of 30 June Sevastopol Defense district had following units, which were partially battle-worthy:
                    109th Rifle Div (near 2000 men), 142nd Rifle Brigade (near 1500 men), four combined battalions, composed from remainders of broken unit, artillery regiments of coast defense, flak system and Air Forces of Black Sea Fleet (near 2000 men). They had light infantry weapon, some mortars and light guns.

                    2. According Encyclopedia

                    In the start of June 1942 Sevastopol Defense District had 7 Rifle Divisions (6 from them had 50% of men), 4 Marines Brigades and 3 Marine Regiments.

                    Soviet forces were:
                    106,000 men (including 82,000 of first line troops), 606 guns, 918 mortars, 38 tanks, 116 planes.

                    On 13 of June of 1942 ships transferred in Sevastopol 138th Rifle Brigade.
                    On 17 of June of 1942 ships transferred in Sevastopol 142nd Rifle Brigade

                    During combats for Sevastopol fought well following units:
                    - 25th Rifle Division of general-mayor (“general-major” in the West terms) Kolomiets T.K.
                    - 95th Rifle Division of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Kapitohin A.G. (before Jan 1942 - general-mayor (“general-major” in the West terms) Vorobiov V.F.)
                    - 109th Rifle Division of general-mayor (“general-major” in the West terms) Novikov P.G.
                    - 345th Rifle Division of podpolkovnik (rank between “major” and “colonel” in the West terms) Guz N.O.
                    - 7en Marines Brigade of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Zhidilov E.I.
                    - 8ht Marine Brigade of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Gorpistchenko P.F. (before Jan 1942 - polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Vilypanskiy V.L.)
                    - 79th Naval Rifle Brigade of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Potapov A.S.
                    - 265th and 134th Artillery Regiments,
                    - artillery regiments of pillboxes,
                    - 30th, 35th, 54th, 19th and 705th batteries of coast defense.

                    To the end of June in Sevastopol Defense District divisions had 300-400 men, brigades – 200 men.

                    In map I saw 9th Marine Brigade (in rear of 1st sector of defense)

                    Conclusions:

                    There are some differences between different sources (sorry that my previous information was not completely right, that article described all defense of Sevastopol, not only June of 1942) but it is possible to make some conclusions:

                    1. SDD in June 1942 had 7 divisions
                    - 25th “Chapaevskaya” Rifle Division of general-mayor (not polkovnik!!!) Kolomiets T.K.
                    - 95th Rifle Division of polkovnik Kapitohin A.G.
                    - 109th Rifle Division of general-mayor Novikov P.G.
                    - 345th Rifle Division of podpolkovnik (in other sorces – polkovnik, but very often “podpolkovniks” are called “polkovnik” like in case when all type of generals are called only “general”) Guz N.O.
                    - 386th Rile Division of polkovnik Skutel’nik N.F
                    - 388th Rile Division
                    - 172nd Rile Division of polkovnik Laskin I.A.

                    I didn’t find mentions about 40th and 42nd Cav. Div (there is no these Div in maps)

                    4 Marine brigades
                    - 7en Marines Brigade of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Zhidilov E.I.
                    - 8ht Marine Brigade of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Gorpistchenko P.F.
                    - 9th Marines Brigade
                    - 79 Naval Rifle Brigade of polkovnik (“colonel” in the West terms) Potapov A.S.

                    3 Marines Regiments
                    - 3rd Marines Regiment
                    - 2nd Perekopskiy Marines Regiment
                    - , may be,1st Sevastopol Marine regiment

                    Later SDD got 138th and 142nd Rifle Brigades

                    2. There are differences in amount of guns and mortars in start of June of 1942 (600 guns and mortars or 606 guns and 918 mortars)

                    3. Earlier I wrote that Gorpistchenko P.F. was commander of 1st Sevastopol Marine regiment. May be, it was earlier, before June 1942, and in June of 1942 he became commander of 8th Marines Brigade.

                    Remarks

                    1. Sevastopol was defended not by Maritime army but Sevastopol Defense District (SDD) (commander – vitse-admiral (“vice-admiral” in the West terms) Oktiabrskiy F.S.).

                    Maritime army was base of SDD, commander of Maritime army general-mayor Petrov I.V. was second-in-command in land defense questions of SDD commander.

                    2. I do not understand difference between Marines and Naval Rifle Division. May be, it was in amount of heavy infantry weapon, but, as I suppose, sailors were equal in these units.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Re: Thanks a lot!

                      Originally posted by Andrey
                      I heard also about Fort Stalin and Fort Sibir (Siberia).

                      I tried to make more correct names (letters in words) if to speak about pronunciation.

                      For example, Gorki is wrong, Gorkiy (may be, Gorikiy, I do not know how to write in English correctly some Russian sounds and letters) is more correct if to speak about Russian pronunciation.

                      Malakhov (not Malakov) hill is very famous place, such places are in Sevastopol and in Stalingrad.
                      Forts: Stalin and Sibir' like others seems not to be called so in Soviet history.
                      (Gor'kiy- is the most correct spelling)

                      BTW, It was a German idea of giving such names for Soviet fortifications. In reality there were no serious ones in sevastopol in the beginning of its defence. The most serious were 30th and 35th Naval Batteries (305mm)

                      Alexander (it is the second name) was a commander of one of it (I can't remember which one)

                      BTW, I hope to place here in one of the next updates some maps of Sevastopol.....
                      Follow my newsletters..................
                      (maybe they are to appear in March)
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Andrey


                        Again, 7,8,9 Brigades were named "Brigada Morskoy Pekhoty", but the 79th was named "Morskaya Strelkovaya Brigada" [/B]

                        You can to use any words together with Naval Brigade name, it is OK for me.

                        But it is wrong to use "Rifle" word together with "Marines".? I spoke ONLY about units with word "Marines" in their name.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Andrey, your article about the soviet forces of Sevastopol in June '42 is absolutely stunning! A thousand thanks to you for all the time and effort ! :bowdown:

                          Regards, Sven

                          BTW, I hope to place here in one of the next updates some maps of Sevastopol.....
                          That's good to hear! :thumb:

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Re: Andrey

                            Originally posted by amvas
                            To my mind
                            "Marine" term might be used for landing units
                            "Naval" for Rifle brigades formed from common sailors
                            As I understand it is in theory.

                            Practically, as I know, both types were composed from common sailors, Navy had no time for special training of new Marines units.

                            So as I suppose in 1942 combat abilities of sailors in "Marines" units and "Naval Rifle Brigades" were completely equal.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              1.In Russian there is letter "soft sign". Amvas uses " ' " symbol instead of "soft sign" but I didn't see it later. It is good idea but I am not sure that non-Russians will read it correctly.

                              So, for example " l " and " l' " are different sounds. " l " is equal first sound in word "local", " l' " is equal first sound in word "leader" (soft " l ").

                              If to use " ' " instead of "soft sign", so it will be more correct to change:

                              Oktiabrskiy - Oktiabr'skiy
                              Guz - Guz'
                              Sevastopol - Sevastopol'
                              Gor'kiy - is really more correct


                              2. "Mamaschaij" - may be, "Mamachay" will be more correct? Amvas, are you agree?


                              3. "Independent Coastal Defense Artillery Division - Kapitan Konstantin Radowski"

                              3.1. In Russian military terms there are two terms - "diviziya" - analog of "division" and "divizion".

                              "Divizion" is term only for artillery and navy, it is very like in sound (especially in German language) and as word with "division" but it is not equal "division".

                              In Navy it means 3-4 light ships (destroyers, for example).

                              In Artillery it is equal american "batallion" (as in my dictionary), "divizion" means 3-4 batteries.

                              You used term "division" but it also may be "divizion" (formation of some coastal batteries) which is translated correctly as "battalion".

                              Additionally, it is strange for me that "kapitan" ("captain" in West terms) is commander of "division". It is too small rank for such large formation, usually commander of "division" had rank of "polkovnik" ("colonel") or general-mayor ("general-major), sometimes it was "podpolkovnik" (between "major" and "colonel"). In infantry "kapitan" could be only commander of company or battalion, in artillery "kapitan" could be commander of "divizion".

                              3.2. Kapitan Konstantin Radowski - Russian names don't finish "i" sound, it is possible to finish it "iy" sounds, so Radovskiy is more correct if to speak about Russian letters.

                              4. "Tashkent" was not destroyer, he had OFFICIAL type name "leader of destroyers" (lider esmintsev), sometimes it was decreased to only "leader" (lider) in type name (I often heard about "Leader "Tashkent", not "destroyer "Tashkent") - it means large destroyer, it was something between destroyer and light cruiser.

                              Remarks

                              1. I am not specialist in Sevastopol defense, I have only common impression.

                              It will be large mistake to trust 100% in my words, when I speak about concrete names, digits, dates because I use different sources which can be wrong. I specially give sources of my information when I am not sure in my words.

                              Amvas is more competent.

                              Some information which I gave was known for every schoolboy in USSR - ;-).

                              2. I am not sure about

                              - 9th Marines Brigade (I only found it in one map but I didn't found it in other map in two different sources, also there are no other mentions about this Brigade in my sources)
                              - 1st Sevastopol Marines Regiment (I found it in article which described ALL Sevastopol defense from 1941-42, so this unit could be transfered from Sevastopol', disbanded or renamed before June of 1942)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Andrey

                                Originally posted by Andrey
                                You can to use any words together with Naval Brigade name, it is OK for me.

                                But it is wrong to use "Rifle" word together with "Marines".? I spoke ONLY about units with word "Marines" in their name.

                                Ok, I use Naval Rifle Brigade and Marine Brigade

                                You are right that they were almost the same, but maybe they could had some differences in structure.....
                                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                                Comment

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