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  • The Russians

    I owuld like to state that, though often underated, the Russians kicked German butt in WWII. I hear German apologists always using excuses as to why they lost. One I hear the most is that Hitler meddled in military affairs. What do they think Stalin did?

    I hardly think he was a nice guy to work for.

  • #2
    Igotmilk said:

    I owuld like to state that, though often underated, the Russians kicked German butt in WWII. I hear German apologists always using excuses as to why they lost. One I hear the most is that Hitler meddled in military affairs. What do they think Stalin did?

    Very true. The Stavka (Soviet High Command) was very much Stalin's military rubber stamp, as much as the Politburo was his political rubber stamp. The official Chief of of the General Staff, Marshall Kliment Voroshilov, was a puppet who slavishly jumped to Stalin's every whim. If I recall correctly, the previous holder of that position was Marshall Tukhachevsky, and he sort of disappeared in 1937 or 1938. Quite possibly, Stalin micro-managed military affairs to a possibly even greater degree than Hitler. The only times when he allowed any strategic freddom were when the Red Army was on the brink of disaster, as with Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad.

    Why did Russia win. One prime reason was that they were willing, and could afford, to trade territory for time. Very similar to Napoleon, the German officer corps learned how Russia could literally swallow entire armies. Another reason was the "home field advantage". The Red Army soldiers by and large were not fighting for "Comrade Stalin" , not for the Soviet Union, but rather for Mother Russia. In fact, Stalin allowed the use of patriotic heroes, even of religious references. Regardless of the constant references, in theaters, radio and in print, exhorting the country to "fight for Comrade Stalin", even he knew that was not a particularly moving appeal. Into this, new appeals began airing invoking the names of Dmitri Donskoi, Alexander Nevsky, Suvorov, Ivan IV (the terrible). In fact Stalin commissioned the renowned filmmaker, Sergei Eisenstein, to make a film about Ivan. Despite the influence of Stalin, the film is regarded as a masterpiece. In my opinion, having seen the film, it well deserves that praise.

    In the final analysis, the soldiers of the Wehrmacht, indoctrination aside, really did not know why they were in Russia. The soldiers of the the Red Army, had no doubt of why they were fighting - they were defending the homeland (the "Rodina") . That, as much as anything, should well explain the outcome.
    Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
    (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by hogdriver




      Very true. The Stavka (Soviet High Command) was very much Stalin's military rubber stamp, as much as the Politburo was his political rubber stamp. The official Chief of of the General Staff, Marshall Kliment Voroshilov, was a puppet who slavishly jumped to Stalin's every whim. If I recall correctly, the previous holder of that position was Marshall Tukhachevsky, and he sort of disappeared in 1937 or 1938. Quite possibly, Stalin micro-managed military affairs to a possibly even greater degree than Hitler. The only times when he allowed any strategic freddom were when the Red Army was on the brink of disaster, as with Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad.

      I disagree somewhat with this assessment.

      Stalin was a dictator who had an extreme hold on the Soviet Army early on in the war.
      As time progressed, however, Stalin allowed more freedom to his key generals as they gained experience(remember the '37 purges). Even Stavka meetings were more of a consensus decision than most realize; of course Stalin always had last say!

      This was the direct opposite of what occured in Germany over the same period. Hitler micromanaged the war much more as time went on until Germany's final defeat.
      Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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      • #4
        [QUOTE]Originally posted by hogdriver

        I owuld like to state that, though often underated, the Russians kicked German butt in WWII. I hear German apologists always using excuses as to why they lost. One I hear the most is that Hitler meddled in military affairs. What do they think Stalin did?

        Very true. The Stavka (Soviet High Command) was very much Stalin's military rubber stamp, as much as the Politburo was his political rubber stamp. The official Chief of of the General Staff, Marshall Kliment Voroshilov, was a puppet who slavishly jumped to Stalin's every whim. If I recall correctly, the previous holder of that position was Marshall Tukhachevsky, and he sort of disappeared in 1937 or 1938. Quite possibly, Stalin micro-managed military affairs to a possibly even greater degree than Hitler. The only times when he allowed any strategic freddom were when the Red Army was on the brink of disaster, as with Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad.


        1. It is not true.

        Voroshilov was not Chief of General Staff, he was Minister of Defence and some time before war.

        In 1939-40 Shaposhnikov was Chief of General Staff, in 1941 - Zhukov, later - Vasilevskiy (as I remember).

        Stalin tried to command everything in 1941 and in 1942, it was reason of some large disasters. He understood it and later he let for generals to make decisions, the later the more freedom Soviet generals had.

        Situation was opposite in Germany. In 1941 generals had most freedom, later Hitler became to make every decisions instead of his generals, the later the less freedom German generals had.

        2. Economics was large reason. Soviet industry made more tanks, planes and guns than German. Germany had lack of resources, USSR with lend-lease has no lack of resources.

        Andrey

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tigersqn
          I disagree somewhat with this assessment.

          Stalin was a dictator who had an extreme hold on the Soviet Army early on in the war.
          As time progressed, however, Stalin allowed more freedom to his key generals as they gained experience(remember the '37 purges). Even Stavka meetings were more of a consensus decision than most realize; of course Stalin always had last say!

          This was the direct opposite of what occured in Germany over the same period. Hitler micromanaged the war much more as time went on until Germany's final defeat.
          Yes, while Stalin did give some freedom, every Russian commander lived with the knowledge that:

          1) at any given time, Stalin could arbitrarily overrule them, without any explanation or rationale;
          2) after even the most insignificant of setbacks, or deviation from the Stavka's plans, they could be summarily executed or sent to the GULAG (and their families as well), even Voroshilov was deathly afraid of Stalin's whims and caprices.
          3) even in the event of successes by commanders, they risked death or imprisonment if Stalin perceived them as a threat. There was no right way to conduct operations - one only tried to command as they thought (or hoped) Comrade Stalin would do.
          Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
          (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Andrey

            Stalin tried to command everything in 1941 and in 1942, it was reason of some large disasters. He understood it and later he let for generals to make decisions, the later the more freedom Soviet generals had.

            Situation was opposite in Germany. In 1941 generals had most freedom, later Hitler became to make every decisions instead of his generals, the later the less freedom German generals had.
            interesting comparison ... Hitler thought he was the one who made the german initial successes, and thus he was really to become the one who buried them all. How luck turns all around!
            Attn to ALL my opponents:

            If you sent me your turn and after 24 hours, you still did not get anything from me, please be sure to post in the forum to ask for what is going on.

            Remember, I ALWAYS reply within 24 hours, even if I do NOT have time to play my turn, in which case I will at least send you email to tell you that I will have to play it later, but I DO receive your turn.

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            • #7
              [QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrey
              Originally posted by hogdriver

              I owuld like to state that, though often underated, the Russians kicked German butt in WWII. I hear German apologists always using excuses as to why they lost. One I hear the most is that Hitler meddled in military affairs. What do they think Stalin did?

              Very true. The Stavka (Soviet High Command) was very much Stalin's military rubber stamp, as much as the Politburo was his political rubber stamp. The official Chief of of the General Staff, Marshall Kliment Voroshilov, was a puppet who slavishly jumped to Stalin's every whim. If I recall correctly, the previous holder of that position was Marshall Tukhachevsky, and he sort of disappeared in 1937 or 1938. Quite possibly, Stalin micro-managed military affairs to a possibly even greater degree than Hitler. The only times when he allowed any strategic freddom were when the Red Army was on the brink of disaster, as with Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad.



              1. It is not true.

              Voroshilov was not Chief of General Staff, he was Minister of Defence and some time before war.

              In 1939-40 Shaposhnikov was Chief of General Staff, in 1941 - Zhukov, later - Vasilevskiy (as I remember).

              Stalin tried to command everything in 1941 and in 1942, it was reason of some large disasters. He understood it and later he let for generals to make decisions, the later the more freedom Soviet generals had.

              Situation was opposite in Germany. In 1941 generals had most freedom, later Hitler became to make every decisions instead of his generals, the later the less freedom German generals had.

              2. Economics was large reason. Soviet industry made more tanks, planes and guns than German. Germany had lack of resources, USSR with lend-lease has no lack of resources.

              Andrey
              I stand corrected. Thanks, Andrey.

              Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
              (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

              Comment

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