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Oranienbaum pocket

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  • hoffburg
    replied
    Thank you, and next time I will use the sticky thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rambow
    replied
    Hi Andreas,

    Almost literally:
    "From the first days of defense of the city at 2nd Naval Infantry Brigade accounts of fascists kills were opened by Red Navy men Ptakhin and Kamenchuk, commissar Yamanov, politic officer deputy Kostyuk. Then there whole groups of snipers were formed with such destroyers in battalions. Thirst for extermination of fascists was so huge that it was needed to set a queue for "hunting" missions."

    May it helps somehow.

    Edit:
    Actually there is "Russian Translation" sticky thread - please feel free to post there if you have similar problems.
    Last edited by Rambow; 28 Feb 08, 06:28.

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  • hoffburg
    replied
    Can anybody translate the text marked in red for me please?

    С 16 сентября 1941 года начинается история Ораниенбаумского плацдарма. С начала боев на Ораниенбаумском плацдарме 2-я обрмп вела оборонительные бои и разведку (в т.ч. боем), совершенствовала инженерное оборудование полосы обороны и развивала снайперское движение. «С первых же дней обороны города во 2-й бригаде морской пехоты открыли личные счета истребления фашистов краснофлотцы Птахин, Каменчук, комиссар Яманов, замполитрука Костюк. Позже из таких истребителей в батальонах формировались целые группы снайперов. Тяга к истреблению фашистов была столь велика, что приходилось устанавливать очередь для отправки на «охоту». Из статьи "Молодость суровой Балтики" Капитана 1-го ранга В. А. Микаца, бывшего помощника начальника Политуправления КБФ по комсомольской работе. 28 сентября 1941 года военкомом бригады назначен бригадный комиссар Г.Т.Земляков; 5 октября командование бригадой принял полковник В.М.Ржанов.

    Thanks.

    Andreas

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  • hoffburg
    replied
    Great, Thanks.
    Lomonocov (Oranienbaum) town website
    thats mostly what I am looking for.

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  • Rambow
    replied
    You are welcome

    Originally posted by hoffburg View Post
    I can't find the "mark of 94,1" on my maps. Can you give me a villagename nearby of this position, please?
    Well I also did not manage to find that mark. I suppose it was near Мишелово (Mischelovo?) just to south from Tamengont (Google Map) because there began next troops position.
    Originally posted by hoffburg View Post
    Also I am looking for more information about the Naval Infantry Brigades and Rifle Divisions (Commanders and OOB 1941) acting in the Oranienbaum Pocket. Do you know any good websites or English Books about this? You can also name Russian websites, I will translate them for me by Google.
    Actually I do not know any reliable and detailed source about that, sorry. I used the information of Lomonocov (Oranienbaum) town website and Boevoy Sostav (Soviet OOB). There is some info about formation of Rifle divisions and Naval Infantry Brigades. I am afraid more detailed information can be found at TSAMO archives only.

    Leave a comment:


  • hoffburg
    replied
    Hello Rambow,

    thank you very much for the information.

    2nd Naval Infantry Brigade (2 брмп - from Lubanovo (Лубаново) to the mark of 94,1)
    I can't find the "mark of 94,1" on my maps. Can you give me a villagename nearby of this position, please?

    Also I am looking for more information about the Naval Infantry Brigades and Rifle Divisions (Commanders and OOB 1941) acting in the Oranienbaum Pocket. Do you know any good websites or English Books about this? You can also name Russian websites, I will translate them for me by Google.

    Thanks a lot.

    Bye

    Andreas

    Leave a comment:


  • Rambow
    replied
    Welcome aboard, Hoffburg

    I suppose it was 2nd Naval Infantry Brigade. Generally at that time Coastal (Primorskaya) Operation Group had front line as follow (from West to East):
    5th Naval Infantry Brigade (5 брмп on soviet maps)
    2nd Naval Infantry Brigade (2 брмп - from Lubanovo (Лубаново) to the mark of 94,1)
    3rd Special Naval Infantry Regiment
    48th Rifle Division (48 сд - from Porozhki (Порожки) to the sea shore)

    Somewhere there were also 50th Special Naval Infantry Battalion and 287th Separated Tank Battalion by the end of 1941.

    EDIT: 8th Army was already transferred to the mainland - Coastal Operation Group was formed on the 24th of October as 2nd Neva (Nevskaya) Operation Group. The name was changed to 'Coastal' on November 2.
    Last edited by Rambow; 24 Feb 08, 05:47.

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  • hoffburg
    replied
    Hi,

    I am looking for information about which Soviet division fight against the German 217 InfanterieDivision in December 1941 (behind the Oranienbaum Pocket Frontline at Voronino).

    Was it the 48th Division and does it still come under the 8th Armee? What is the Primorsky Operating Group?

    One more map:
    http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/map...st1Dec41_a.jpg

    Thanks

    Andreas

    Leave a comment:


  • Snefens
    replied
    Just to follow up on my previous post about an earlier attack out of the pocket. It started November 17th 1943 in the Gostilitsy area, but really was nothing more than a recconnaisance attack. It was the Füsilier-Battailon 215 that was sent to clear up the penetration, which was completed already on November 18th.

    As for why the pocket was never attempted eliminated I think the reason was simply that frequent Soviet offensives throughout the Leningrad and Volkhov sectors, though isolated often resulting in disasters, kept the germnas from building up the reserve nescesary to take on the Oraniembaum pocket.
    This was certainly the case in summer 1942 where the 11th Armee was sent to Leningrad after finally having taken Sevastopol on the Crimea. AGN drew up several plans for where this reinforcement would be put to best use, and one of these plans was indeed the elimination of the Oranienbaum pocket. The plan was codenamed Bettelstab, but wasn't to have been launched before other operations (The reduction of the Pogoste pocket, Operation Moorbrand. was one of them)
    Utimately none of the planned operations was ever started, as the Soviet Siniavino operation in August 1942 forced the Germans to deploy their reserves in order to hold on to the Shlisselburg corridor.

    Other issues that might have an impact was the large fortresses and guns at krassnyi Gorka and Seraya Loshad on the north coast of the pocket. The pocket roughly followed the range of these batteries.
    The terrain in the sector also wasn't very favorable for an attacker. Comprising mainly of swamps and forrest, with the exception of the coastal road.

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  • Browning50cal
    replied
    I know that German units in the Leningrad area were poorly supplied during 1942 and later, due to Hitler's fixation with Stalingrad and such. But what was the reason that the lines were so static for such a long period of time?

    Lack of German armor? Lack of supply for Soviet Units inside the pocket? What was the deciding factor that allowed the Soviet troops to hold in Oranienbaum? Was there a prepared or natural obstacle at Oranienbaum that the Germans could not breach?

    Did the Germans try to cut through different parts of the pocket, or was there a standing order to simply contain the pocket at it's then present boundaries?

    B50

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  • Snefens
    replied
    The pocket itself changed very little shape through 1941-1944, but I remember that I've read in one of the German divisional histories (215., 170. or maybe 61., I can't remember atm. I'll try to look through my books.) how a soviet reconnaisance attack (in mid-late 1943?) gave real trouble for the LW-Felddivision holding that part of the pocket, and a kampfgruppe of the Heeres division in question had to be dispatched to restore the line. This was on the eastern part of the kessel. On the western part there are some maps in the history of marine-artillerie-abteilung 531 by Jörg Benz, where it also describes some minor fighting, but no major change in the front.

    If you look at detailed maps of the area you will see that the center part of the front follows a significant rise/decline in land height.
    The Soviet to the north were on the lower ground at 20-40m, while over the course of a 1-2 km the ground rose to over 120m. Nothing dramatic, but it gave a natural holding positiion for the Germans on higher drier ground.

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  • ThomasM
    replied
    Thanks alex!

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  • amvas
    replied
    I have found one suitable map. Not the best, but better than none


    Regards
    Alex

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  • Browning50cal
    replied
    I guess that the pocket stayed pretty much that same shape for 2.5 years until the breakout.

    The only maps that I have been able to find in my exhuastive searches over the last couple of months have been:

    1. The formation of the pocket, Sep 1941.

    2. The Breakout, Jan 1944.

    Nothing in between noting any major German incursions into the pocket, or Soviet ventures out of, untill 1944.

    B50

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  • ThomasM
    replied
    Originally posted by Browning50cal View Post

    Red line/black line/dots: Front line as of 26 Sep. (Stabilized front)

    Is this what you were asking?
    Yes thank you. what I try to gather is if that is the static frontline where the pocket frozed (as there seem to be fighting further north as well?)

    But that size is the most common size of the pockets that I have found so I asume its the "right" one.

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