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  • Oranienbaum pocket

    What info does there exist about Oranienbaum pocket? sitting and drawing a map in IL2 I find 2 sizes of the bridgehead and cant sort out wich is wich.

    So if anybody knows any good maps about the bridgehead for 41-44 it would be much welcomed.

    I have Glantz book "Battle for Leningrad 1941-1944" but it doesnt help all that much exept providing me with a 1941 "big" bridgehead units.

    /Thomas
    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
    www.reenactor.se

  • #2
    It's info for 1941, but I hope this helps:

    http://www.curme.co.uk/lengrad6.htm

    Just found this surfing, I kept the map.

    B50

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Browning50cal View Post
      It's info for 1941, but I hope this helps:

      http://www.curme.co.uk/lengrad6.htm

      Just found this surfing, I kept the map.

      B50
      Impossible that its for 1941. That is for 1944 actually. (Nordland and 9th and 10th LW field divisions didnt ewen exist in 1941) Nordland arrived at Oranienbaum in December 1943... My guess would be that that map is for either december 1943 or January 1944. On 14th January 07:00 local time the russian offensive started and part of Nordlands Recon battalion arrived in the area at around 18th December 1943. So that is a error from that pages authors part.

      /Thomas
      http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
      www.reenactor.se

      Comment


      • #4
        I guess in that case, the lines for the pocket must have been static for nearly 3 years after the boundaries were set.

        I can't find any maps for 1942 or '43.

        B50

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        • #5
          Not very good quality and details, sorry
          http://samsv.narod.ru/Oper/Map/oranienbaum.jpg

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          • #6
            That's an awesome map for my purposes. Thanks for posting it.

            B50

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            • #7
              Wery nice find anyway Rambow, but a question, what does it say in the lower left corner where it explains frontlines? because that seems to be the definite frontline to go after.

              /Thomas
              http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
              www.reenactor.se

              Comment


              • #8
                Do you mean the arrows?

                Black Arrow: Direction of attack of German-Fascist forces in September 1941.

                Red Arrow: Counterstrikes and Counterattacks of Soviet forces.

                Red line/black line/dots: Front line as of 26 Sep. (Stabilized front)

                Is this what you were asking?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Browning50cal View Post

                  Red line/black line/dots: Front line as of 26 Sep. (Stabilized front)

                  Is this what you were asking?
                  Yes thank you. what I try to gather is if that is the static frontline where the pocket frozed (as there seem to be fighting further north as well?)

                  But that size is the most common size of the pockets that I have found so I asume its the "right" one.
                  http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
                  www.reenactor.se

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I guess that the pocket stayed pretty much that same shape for 2.5 years until the breakout.

                    The only maps that I have been able to find in my exhuastive searches over the last couple of months have been:

                    1. The formation of the pocket, Sep 1941.

                    2. The Breakout, Jan 1944.

                    Nothing in between noting any major German incursions into the pocket, or Soviet ventures out of, untill 1944.

                    B50

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have found one suitable map. Not the best, but better than none


                      Regards
                      Alex
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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                      • #12
                        Thanks alex!
                        http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
                        www.reenactor.se

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The pocket itself changed very little shape through 1941-1944, but I remember that I've read in one of the German divisional histories (215., 170. or maybe 61., I can't remember atm. I'll try to look through my books.) how a soviet reconnaisance attack (in mid-late 1943?) gave real trouble for the LW-Felddivision holding that part of the pocket, and a kampfgruppe of the Heeres division in question had to be dispatched to restore the line. This was on the eastern part of the kessel. On the western part there are some maps in the history of marine-artillerie-abteilung 531 by Jörg Benz, where it also describes some minor fighting, but no major change in the front.

                          If you look at detailed maps of the area you will see that the center part of the front follows a significant rise/decline in land height.
                          The Soviet to the north were on the lower ground at 20-40m, while over the course of a 1-2 km the ground rose to over 120m. Nothing dramatic, but it gave a natural holding positiion for the Germans on higher drier ground.
                          Snefens

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                          • #14
                            I know that German units in the Leningrad area were poorly supplied during 1942 and later, due to Hitler's fixation with Stalingrad and such. But what was the reason that the lines were so static for such a long period of time?

                            Lack of German armor? Lack of supply for Soviet Units inside the pocket? What was the deciding factor that allowed the Soviet troops to hold in Oranienbaum? Was there a prepared or natural obstacle at Oranienbaum that the Germans could not breach?

                            Did the Germans try to cut through different parts of the pocket, or was there a standing order to simply contain the pocket at it's then present boundaries?

                            B50

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                            • #15
                              Just to follow up on my previous post about an earlier attack out of the pocket. It started November 17th 1943 in the Gostilitsy area, but really was nothing more than a recconnaisance attack. It was the Füsilier-Battailon 215 that was sent to clear up the penetration, which was completed already on November 18th.

                              As for why the pocket was never attempted eliminated I think the reason was simply that frequent Soviet offensives throughout the Leningrad and Volkhov sectors, though isolated often resulting in disasters, kept the germnas from building up the reserve nescesary to take on the Oraniembaum pocket.
                              This was certainly the case in summer 1942 where the 11th Armee was sent to Leningrad after finally having taken Sevastopol on the Crimea. AGN drew up several plans for where this reinforcement would be put to best use, and one of these plans was indeed the elimination of the Oranienbaum pocket. The plan was codenamed Bettelstab, but wasn't to have been launched before other operations (The reduction of the Pogoste pocket, Operation Moorbrand. was one of them)
                              Utimately none of the planned operations was ever started, as the Soviet Siniavino operation in August 1942 forced the Germans to deploy their reserves in order to hold on to the Shlisselburg corridor.

                              Other issues that might have an impact was the large fortresses and guns at krassnyi Gorka and Seraya Loshad on the north coast of the pocket. The pocket roughly followed the range of these batteries.
                              The terrain in the sector also wasn't very favorable for an attacker. Comprising mainly of swamps and forrest, with the exception of the coastal road.
                              Snefens

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