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  • Bagration.......

    Any thoughts on this operation? As in anything related to it, one question I have, among others, is the tank forces involved on the Russian side, any good info, sites and/or books on it that you guys know about?

    Cheers, thanks in advance

  • #2
    Originally posted by TRDG View Post
    Any thoughts on this operation? As in anything related to it, one question I have, among others, is the tank forces involved on the Russian side, any good info, sites and/or books on it that you guys know about?

    Cheers, thanks in advance


    OZON

    This book is good enough cotaining daily reports about this operation.

    I also have quite many books containing materials for this very famous battle. Some books are very specific (and expensive), as they had been published in 1940s-50s in limited number of copies...
    So, even if I name some of them it will nto help much ty, because you can't find their copies for sale anywhere...

    Regards
    Alex
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #3
      I'm not aware of any English language books that go into great detail about this operation. If anyone does please let me (us) know.
      Those that forget history are condemed to repeat it.
      If you're going to be one you might as well be a BIG RED ONE

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      • #4
        Hmm, quik look at wikipedia gave some books with Glantz and Zaloga amongst authors
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati...ion#References

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        • #5
          Zaloga's Osprey volume is very good.

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          • #6
            There are a few books out about Operation Bagration:
            "Hitler's Greatest Defeat the Collapse of Army Group Center" by Paul Adair.
            "Soviet Blitzkrieg" by Walter S. Dunn (heard not so good things about this author)
            "Belorussia 1944" Glantz
            "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
            "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
            "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

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            • #7
              Thank you!

              I will try and see if I can find them, have you by chance read the Osprey book on Bagration? I have been told that it might also be a help.......??

              Cheers, thanks again!!

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              • #8
                Here is the book I mentioned earlier

                http://www.zshare.net/download/5126395fa691ba/
                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by TRDG View Post
                  I will try and see if I can find them, have you by chance read the Osprey book on Bagration? I have been told that it might also be a help.......??

                  Cheers, thanks again!!
                  No, Osprey books are pretty limited in their scope, so not for me when it comes to WWII. If you want a quick read through then you might like them.
                  "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                  "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                  "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've read these:

                    Walter S. Dunn, Jr., SOVIET BLITZKRIEG: THE BATTLE FOR WHITE RUSSIA, 1944 (Boulder, CO: Lynne Reinnere Publishers, 2000)

                    David M. Glantz and Jonathan House, WHEN TITANS CLASHED: HOW THE RED ARMY STOPPED HITLER (Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press 1995)

                    Paul Adair, HITLER’S GREATEST DEFEAT: THE COLLAPSE OF ARMY GROUP CENTRE, JUNE 1944 (London: Arms and Armour 1994)

                    Steven Zagola, BAGRATION 1944: THE DESTRUCTION OF ARMY GROUP CENTER (Osprey 1997)

                    Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr., CRUMBLING EMPIRE: THE GERMAN DEFEAT IN THE EAST, 1944 (Westport, Conn.: Praeger 2001)

                    John Erikson, THE ROAD TO BERLIN (London: Cassell Military Paperbacks 2003)

                    Also, I vaguely recall that Glantz translated a Red Army study of Bagration (or maybe it was just one on Deep Battle - it's been a while) into English.

                    All of these books are good; the Osprey is a good general overview, not perfect, but great if you don't have a lot of time to study the subject. Dunn, Mitcham and Adair have more detail. Also, more general works (Alexander Werth, Martin Gilbert) discuss the operation, in less detail.

                    Personally, Bagration was my favorite operation of the war, and one of the most wildly successful single operations of any nation. I think the reason not more is written on it, in the West at least, is because it was so huge and complex in scope, but so short in duration (five weeks or so, depending on how you date its start and end) that it is hard to classify it as a battle or a campaign. Also, the names are not that familiar to Westerners and are harder to place than Moscow, Leningrad or Stalingrad.
                    "There are only two professions in the world in which the amateur excels the professional. One, military strategy, and, two, prostitution."
                    -- Maj. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

                    (Avatar: Commodore Edwin Ward Moore, Republic of Texas Navy)

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                    • #11
                      Thanks Jon

                      I will have to see if I can find some of them, now if you had to pick the best specific, and the best general one, which two would you pick? I am looking for Russian tank formations and tactics specifically, at the moment. Besides war gaming, I find this operation very interesting on many points, among those would be all the mixed forces that were "in the line" fo the Germans, security forces, nationalities, and many others, along with the Russian intel that "fooled" the Germans as to where they were going to attack, stuff like that.

                      Cheers, a very good post with some great info, thanks again!!

                      Tom
                      Last edited by TRDG; 26 Nov 07, 13:44.

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                      • #12
                        Two specific books that I think represent the opposing forces are:
                        Belorussia 1944: The Soviet General Staff Study translated and edited by Glantz and Orenstein (already mentioned, but it is the Red Army's study of the operation for conclusions from their war experience)

                        Battle for White Russia: The Destruction of Army Group Center June 1944 by Gerd Niepold, English Edition Brassey, 1987 (this one combines well with Adair's previously mentioned)

                        Another very German perspective is The Collapse of Army Group Center in the East 1944, by Rolf Hinze (I think it is available through Schiffer's pub.)

                        For good general account, not mentioned, is in Earl Ziemke's Stalingrad to Berlin.

                        rna
                        Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                        • #13
                          Just ran across a point on the Belorussian operation made by Zhukov in an interview with a Soviet writer in the 1950's.
                          He was making the point that by the "second and third period of the war, the Germans were largely repeating situations in which the Germans fell into the trap, inot encircelments, into pockets, and, regardless of the repetitiveness of the situtions, still could not accustom themselves to fight in what for them was a new, uncustomary situation of defeat and retreat.

                          "If one takes, for example, the situatio which existed before our offensive in Belorussia in the summer of 1944, one has merely to look at a map for it to be completely apparent that we would launch the strikes precisely from those sectors from which we did later on, that we would be able to create this Belorussian breaktrhough some 300-400 km wide which the Germans would be unable to close. The Germans could have forseen this.

                          "The logic of events and elementary military intelligence suggested to them the necessity of pulling back thier troops from the future pocket, shortening and stiffening the front, creating operational reserves behind their front, in a word, everything that is requisite in similar instances. But the Germans did not do this and as a result were defeated in the Belorussian Operation."


                          Zhukov's point and general summary probably had little room for the strategic deceptions one of which was three tank armies to the south caught the German command's attention like a charmed cobra. And then the masking of the offensive with a strategic ripple of the major operations in the summer of 1944.

                          rna
                          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                          • #14
                            Thank you sir!

                            Very interesting indeed, that seems to shed some light here on Bagration for me!!

                            Cheers, thank you very kindly.

                            Tom

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
                              Just ran across a point on the Belorussian operation made by Zhukov in an interview with a Soviet writer in the 1950's.
                              He was making the point that by the "second and third period of the war, the Germans were largely repeating situations in which the Germans fell into the trap, inot encircelments, into pockets, and, regardless of the repetitiveness of the situtions, still could not accustom themselves to fight in what for them was a new, uncustomary situation of defeat and retreat.

                              "If one takes, for example, the situatio which existed before our offensive in Belorussia in the summer of 1944, one has merely to look at a map for it to be completely apparent that we would launch the strikes precisely from those sectors from which we did later on, that we would be able to create this Belorussian breaktrhough some 300-400 km wide which the Germans would be unable to close. The Germans could have forseen this.

                              "The logic of events and elementary military intelligence suggested to them the necessity of pulling back thier troops from the future pocket, shortening and stiffening the front, creating operational reserves behind their front, in a word, everything that is requisite in similar instances. But the Germans did not do this and as a result were defeated in the Belorussian Operation."


                              Zhukov's point and general summary probably had little room for the strategic deceptions one of which was three tank armies to the south caught the German command's attention like a charmed cobra. And then the masking of the offensive with a strategic ripple of the major operations in the summer of 1944.

                              rna

                              The "charmed cobra" analogy is an excellent one, and the pre-Bagration maskirovka operations were brilliantly planned and executed. With local air superiority on the Red Air Force side by that point, it was easier to allow German recon planes to see only what Stavka wanted them to see.

                              Zhukov's point can I think be mostly laid at Hitler's door - I've seen comments about German regimental and battalion leaders avoiding crossroads villages for fear the towns would be designated "festungs" and they'd be ordered to remain there until encircled. It seems as if Hitler succumbed to the same failure as many leaders, in assuming his successful "stand fast" orders of late 1941 would work in every situation, when the maps and numbers dictated different tactics.

                              It's amazing how commanders take tactics that have succeeded in the past and stick with them long past their usefulness.
                              "There are only two professions in the world in which the amateur excels the professional. One, military strategy, and, two, prostitution."
                              -- Maj. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

                              (Avatar: Commodore Edwin Ward Moore, Republic of Texas Navy)

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