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Giving ground for time.......

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  • #46
    There are many

    interesting thoughts and ways to go about this topic, and that is a good one.

    Cheers, an interesting view, thanks!!

    Tom

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Andrey

      In the Ukraine the Germans were stopped, their Ukrainian part of Barbarossa failed.
      If the Germans were "stopped" in the Ukraine, why were their forces many kilometers EAST of Kiev and heading North to meet Guderian? Ever hear of the Uman pocket?
      Last edited by amvas; 09 Dec 07, 04:38.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Barbarossa View Post
        If the Germans were "stopped" in the Ukraine, why were their forces many kilometers EAST of Kiev and heading North to meet Guderian? Ever hear of the Uman pocket?
        Germans got much difficulties in Ukraine because SW fron had large armor units (i.e. mechanised corps) and used them more effectively than the other fronts. However that didn't prevent those from large losses and disappearing in July-August.

        The 6th and 12th Armies, which were surrounded in Uman pocket (or, to be mroe exact their remains) were escaping from surrounding for quite a long time retreating from the state frontier, while armies of the Western and North-Western fronts in the same situation were crashed within the few weeks of the war.

        Regards
        Alex
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Rambow View Post
          Actually it seems "Ground for time" can be said practically about any campaign in any war where theater allowed to use it. But if you do not consider about that not only basing on lines on a map it becomes different.

          I would like to draw attention to four features at the campaign of 1941:
          1. The Red Army were waged in war surprisingly and most of its troops were not mobilized and/or concentrated.

          2. Major german advantage - mobility - often made soviet retreat impossible: germans often occupied rear lines before soviets managed to reach them.

          3. As a result of previous points: troops which met germans near Smolensk and especially near Moscow mostly were not the same those had fought against them before. There were 5 new armies near Smolensk and 8 near Moscow.

          4. But those troops of "first wave" were not just lost - there counterattacks had lots of consequences. For instance famous german turn to the South was a direct result of aggressiveness of Kiev military district armies IMO.
          Agreed about the turn to the south because of Soviet aggressiveness, but the troops facing AGM were also counterattacking, e.g.Yelnia.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Barbarossa View Post
            If the Germans were "stopped" in the Ukraine, why were their forces many kilometers EAST of Kiev and heading North to meet Guderian? Ever hear of the Uman pocket?
            Those were tactical successes.

            If it was so good for the Germans in south so why did Germans sent their tank forces from Moscow direction to south?

            Only the turning of panzer groups of AGC to south resulted to the Kiev catastrophe.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Andrey View Post
              Those were tactical successes.

              If it was so good for the Germans in south so why did Germans sent their tank forces from Moscow direction to south?

              Only the turning of panzer groups of AGC to south resulted to the Kiev catastrophe.
              Simple answer; You cannot have a "pincer" movement with 1 pincer. If Guderian had not moved south, Kiev was still lost, the only differance would have been is that 1000's of Soviet troops would have escaped, there being no "pocket". Incidently, this scenario was "wargamed" in Germany before the war broke out and it was found that after Smolensk was taken, a decision would have to be made on whether or not to turn south to form this "pocket". It was found that if that was done, the Germans would probably lose the war. Some people do not learn well.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Barbarossa View Post
                Simple answer; You cannot have a "pincer" movement with 1 pincer. If Guderian had not moved south, Kiev was still lost, the only differance would have been is that 1000's of Soviet troops would have escaped, there being no "pocket". Incidently, this scenario was "wargamed" in Germany before the war broke out and it was found that after Smolensk was taken, a decision would have to be made on whether or not to turn south to form this "pocket". It was found that if that was done, the Germans would probably lose the war. Some people do not learn well.
                To capture Kiev was only a tactical success. Army Group South could achieve only it with its forces only.

                Strategical success was the capturing of 600,000 Soviet POWs inKiev pocket (but it was a strateical failure in Moscow direction). and it was done with the help of the panzers of Army Group Center

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by grognard View Post
                  Agreed about the turn to the south because of Soviet aggressiveness, but the troops facing AGM were also counterattacking, e.g.Yelnia.
                  Exactly, and let me notice those counters were mostly made by recently formed armies of Reserve Front - one of greatest surprise for germans in that campaign. And moreover when Guderian concentrated his troops for Kiev operation Soviets prepared their own offensive operation directly against 2nd TG (Roslavl-Novozybkov). That was just one of episodes which illustrated that even when soviets turned to more defensive strategy after "Throw back and destroy the enemy!" of the first month they did not stop local offensives at operational level.

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