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Bayonet/Ration Strength Information For Russian Forces

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  • Bayonet/Ration Strength Information For Russian Forces

    Greetings All,

    I have been looking for Bayonet / Ration strength data for the 64th/7th Guards Armies. Actually, this data would be great for all Russian forces during the war.

    Does anyone know where this information can be found?

    I found some of the Ration strength data in the book:

    Isayev Aleksey valer'evich - When no longer there was rapidity. The history VOV, which we did not know

    Исаев Алексей Валерьевич
    КОГДА ВНЕЗАПНОСТИ УЖЕ НЕ БЫЛО. ИСТОРИЯ ВОВ, КОТОРУЮ МЫ НЕ ЗНАЛИ

    FROM: http://militera.lib.ru/h/isaev_av6//08.html

    It appears the author was taking the info from some table of forces, like BSSA data.

    Thanks

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dann Falk View Post
    Greetings All,

    I have been looking for Bayonet / Ration strength data for the 64th/7th Guards Armies. Actually, this data would be great for all Russian forces during the war.

    Does anyone know where this information can be found?
    Ha-ha!
    This information is definetely can be found only in TsAMO archival records. Only small pieces of it can be seen in books.
    Archival form of those records, fr example can be seen on my page
    http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/b...trength_45.htm

    I found some of the Ration strength data in the book:

    Isayev Aleksey valer'evich - When no longer there was rapidity. The history VOV, which we did not know

    Исаев Алексей Валерьевич
    КОГДА ВНЕЗАПНОСТИ УЖЕ НЕ БЫЛО. ИСТОРИЯ ВОВ, КОТОРУЮ МЫ НЕ ЗНАЛИ

    FROM: http://militera.lib.ru/h/isaev_av6//08.html

    It appears the author was taking the info from some table of forces, like BSSA data.

    Thanks
    Alex might took data just from that sort of TsAMO records I told you about.
    At least my friend helped him with doing this sort of work...

    Regards
    Alex
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Great, so we have no access to the TsAMO records information?

      That is not good, sorry to hear of this. This really makes it hard to do proper research...

      Please let me know if anyone you know is going into the Archives in Moacow.

      Thanks again for your efforts.


      Dann

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dann Falk View Post
        Great, so we have no access to the TsAMO records information?

        That is not good, sorry to hear of this. This really makes it hard to do proper research...

        Please let me know if anyone you know is going into the Archives in Moacow.

        Thanks again for your efforts.


        Dann
        Who told you we have no acces there?
        My friend has full access to all opened records in TsAMO and even he can open some closed records.
        We are monopolists in getting some sorts of infor from there!
        But this sort of research is expensive.

        Regards
        Alex
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by amvas View Post
          But this sort of research is expensive.

          Regards
          Alex
          Yeah but its good **** that are coming out from there
          http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
          www.reenactor.se

          Comment


          • #6
            Good News About TsAMO Records

            That is good news Alex that you have a friend that has access to the TsAMO records.

            But, I'm afraid to ask how much $$$ it will cost me to actually retrieve the information about the 64th/7th Guards Armies for the entire war!

            OK, can you please find out from your friend how much it might cost? If I don’t ask we will never know…..true?…..I feel it in my bones that this is good news.

            Thanks again for your help.

            Dann

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dann Falk View Post
              That is good news Alex that you have a friend that has access to the TsAMO records.
              Yes. this week he was ill (got sudden problems with it), but hope he can proceed next week.

              But, I'm afraid to ask how much $$$ it will cost me to actually retrieve the information about the 64th/7th Guards Armies for the entire war!
              Hmmm... Really difficult question. First of all not always those forms are represented in archive. But "Condor" (my friend's nick) already said he can try doing this. The price probably will be not for page, but for research work as such resulting in getting pages for needed time period.
              I can estimate the overall sum (for all the war) not to be less than $2,000
              Probably it's worth to ocncentrate on some battles (Stalingrad, Hungary for example) with further spreading on the other time periods.

              OK, can you please find out from your friend how much it might cost? If I don’t ask we will never know…..true?…..I feel it in my bones that this is good news.

              Thanks again for your help.

              Dann
              Hope I gave you some notice about scale of prices for this sort of info.
              Just to tell you this sort of information is unique and nobody else can get it in such a scale. Other researchers are allowed to copy quite a limited amount of pages...

              Regards
              Alex
              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, that is a bit of cash

                Let me see:

                The 1st Reserve army was formed April 1942 -July 42 = 4 months of data.
                The 64th Army was formed August 42 -April 43 = 9 months of data.
                The 7th Guards Army was formed May 43 - May 45 = 25 months of data.
                ---------------------------------------------------------------
                Total of 38 months of data

                I'm sorry Alex, but I can't do ~$2,000 for the full search. I wish I could.

                Please ask your friend how much to do a smaller search of the records.

                As always, you are the best.

                Dann

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dann Falk View Post
                  Well, that is a bit of cash

                  Let me see:

                  The 1st Reserve army was formed April 1942 -July 42 = 4 months of data.
                  The 64th Army was formed August 42 -April 43 = 9 months of data.
                  The 7th Guards Army was formed May 43 - May 45 = 25 months of data.
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  Total of 38 months of data

                  I'm sorry Alex, but I can't do ~$2,000 for the full search. I wish I could.

                  Please ask your friend how much to do a smaller search of the records.

                  As always, you are the best.

                  Dann
                  Hi, Dann!
                  Just what I said. It's very hard to collect all the records, becuae this work is very expensive (and moreover archival staff often prevents copying complete records). That's why I told you it's better to concentrate on the months where some famous battles took part (e.g. Stalingrad, Kursk, Hungarian). I saw losses reports tables to be done once per 10 days. But the period could be smaller, or larger depending on the sort of fights.

                  Regards
                  Alex

                  P.S. More details we can discuss in private
                  If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by amvas View Post
                    P.S. More details we can discuss in private
                    No, no! Please, feel like home. You do not disturbe us at all... We are curious individuals as well.
                    Kind regards
                    Igor

                    * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                    * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                    * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                      No, no! Please, feel like home. You do not disturbe us at all... We are curious individuals as well.
                      Some sort of info can be discussed only in private...
                      Believe me, I have some reasons for doing this...

                      Regards
                      Alex
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                        Amvas, it was a joke.
                        Every joke contains a portion of joke
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          More Info

                          I have a question for our Russian friends and maybe others would like to know the answer too.

                          To me Bayonet & Ration strength are two different things. For example:

                          A Rifle Division might have 5,287 men assigned to it. These men would be listed as the Divisions Ration strength.

                          The same Division might have 2,469 men listed as it Bayonet strength. These would be the combat troops, Infantry, Artillery, AT, AA, Engineers and so on.

                          The two-part question is:

                          Is this the correct interpretation of Bayonet & Ration strength for the RKKA in WWII?
                          In addition, is there an offical designation for what troops were not part of the Bayonet strength?

                          Thanks

                          Dann

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by Dann Falk View Post
                            I have a question for our Russian friends and maybe others would like to know the answer too.

                            To me Bayonet & Ration strength are two different things. For example:
                            Yep, those things are different.
                            In Russian more exact to call them "Overall manpower" and "Active bayonet manpower"

                            A Rifle Division might have 5,287 men assigned to it. These men would be listed as the Divisions Ration strength.
                            Lets take overall manpower as ~10,000 men

                            The same Division might have 2,469 men listed as it Bayonet strength. These would be the combat troops, Infantry, Artillery, AT, AA, Engineers and so on.

                            The two-part question is:

                            Is this the correct interpretation of Bayonet & Ration strength for the RKKA in WWII?
                            In addition, is there an offical designation for what troops were not part of the Bayonet strength?

                            Thanks

                            Dann

                            hm... I haven't seen any documents giving exact division what sort of staff to call active bayonets and what - not.
                            Even smaller units (like battalion) could have staff, which are not "active bayonets" such as medical staff, signals service et.al.
                            In general "active bayonets" are those soldiers who can be used in fights against enemy.

                            regards
                            Alex
                            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                            Comment

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