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  • Zhukov one of the Worst?

    Well guys, I am ready to defend the reputation of the better Soviet generals including Zhukov. This fellow over at another forum seems to want to include Zhukov and other Soviet generals as among the most incompetent.

    http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...6311090006/p/2

    I know he will bring up Mars...maybe others besides, a lot of old Cold War cant and I'd love ammo from here to fight him on this thread.

    http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...5/m/2051013406


  • #2
    One thought

    The battle for Moskow, what would have happened if he was'nt there....

    Cheers, his other choice to put in his stead there is?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TRDG View Post
      The battle for Moskow, what would have happened if he was'nt there....

      Cheers, his other choice to put in his stead there is?
      Tom,

      You must be reading too much alternative history and not enough actual history. Still recommend that you need to read more on the eastern front from the Red Army perspective.

      The Battle for Moscow was beginning to sort itself with the shaping events such as Kirponos's resistance in the Kiev direction, stabilization of the front around Smolensk, German army logistical and increasing morale problems, etc. before the return of Zhukov.

      Stalin brought Zhukov back from Leningrad primarily because he knew Zhukov would give him straight answers on the situation. Zhukov had the large-scale operational experience at Khalkin Gol, and he had a mental capacity to grasp and hold the operational level details.

      With time Stalin did discover that he had similar talents (candidness which took a moral courage under Stalin** and operational level capabilities) on his General Staff in the Operations Directorate in Generals Vatutin and Vasilevsky. Vatutin could have also matched Zhukov's ruthlessness which probably galvinized the Red Army's defenses on the approaches to Moscow whereas Vasilevsky may have been short in this aspect.

      Stalin could have given Timoshenko another chnace here, and he may have done better on the defensive than he does later at Kharkov on the offensive.

      **Rokossovsky and Konev later in the war as Front commanders demonstrate a moral courage to take decisions contrary to Stalin's position in planning the summer of 1944 operations. Joea, for operational level warfare, we could match either of these Marshals, as well as Zhukov, against the other forum's contenters.

      rna
      Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 05 Nov 07, 07:01.
      Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by joea View Post
        Well guys, I am ready to defend the reputation of the better Soviet generals including Zhukov. This fellow over at another forum seems to want to include Zhukov and other Soviet generals as among the most incompetent.

        http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...6311090006/p/2

        I know he will bring up Mars...maybe others besides, a lot of old Cold War cant and I'd love ammo from here to fight him on this thread.

        http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...5/m/2051013406

        There are only two operations that are brought up when it comes to Zhukov and those who want to prove him 'incompetent' or something along those lines, Seelow Heights and Mars. Both are somewhat controversial but the former has been made into something a lot more than it really was, losses there were nothing out of the ordinary and the German defenses didn't last long. Mars can be debated, of course. By the way, the poster who keeps promising to write something is quite annoying, do tell us if and when he does and what that 'something' is.
        "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
        "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
        "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

        Comment


        • #5
          R.N. Armstrong

          I understand that, I'm still fairly new at this, but, you are saying that Zhukov had no impact on that battle at all? Anyone could have been put in his place and the results would have been the same, is what I am getting here. Other factors yes, I get that, but his is not really worth considering.......??

          Cheers, I am always willing to learn, thanks for the help and taking the time, I respect that.

          Tom

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TRDG View Post
            I understand that, I'm still fairly new at this, but, you are saying that Zhukov had no impact on that battle at all? Anyone could have been put in his place and the results would have been the same, is what I am getting here. Other factors yes, I get that, but his is not really worth considering.......??

            Cheers, I am always willing to learn, thanks for the help and taking the time, I respect that.

            Tom
            In my opinion Zhukov wasn't given enough operational freedom to really hurt AGC. If he had been listened to, then operations along the entire front would have been condensed into operations solely against AGC, perhaps bringing the war to a close much faster than it actually occurred.
            "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
            "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
            "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TRDG View Post
              I understand that, I'm still fairly new at this, but, you are saying that Zhukov had no impact on that battle at all? Anyone could have been put in his place and the results would have been the same, is what I am getting here. Other factors yes, I get that, but his is not really worth considering.......??

              Cheers, I am always willing to learn, thanks for the help and taking the time, I respect that.

              Tom
              Interesting logic path, more like a human resource manager than a student of military history. Wasn't your proposition that if Zhukov had not been there no one else could have managed the battle?

              My response was the conduct of the battle from the Red Army side was not beyond the talent of other senior Red Army leaders(three likely contenders were offered). I noted that in addition to Zhukov's mental capacities and understanding of operational level warfare he brought a galvinizing effect with his command--one of those intangible dimensions of leadership--ruthlessness in dealing with his subordinate commanders and his demands for units. This is a quality that not all commanders possess. Despite his ruthlessness, Zhukov also inspired confidence, another intangible aspect of leadership, down to individual soldiers.

              So, did Zhukov have an impact? Yes.

              Could others have conducted the battle and won with other talents? Yes.

              Could others have conducted the battle and lost? Yes.

              For details see Barbarossa thread, many of the variables were considered from both sides of the front.

              rna
              Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
                Tom,

                You must be reading too much alternative history and not enough actual history. Still recommend that you need to read more on the eastern front from the Red Army perspective.

                The Battle for Moscow was beginning to sort itself with the shaping events such as Kirponos's resistance in the Kiev direction, stabilization of the front around Smolensk, German army logistical and increasing morale problems, etc. before the return of Zhukov.

                Stalin brought Zhukov back from Leningrad primarily because he knew Zhukov would give him straight answers on the situation. Zhukov had the large-scale operational experience at Khalkin Gol, and he had a mental capacity to grasp and hold the operational level details.

                With time Stalin did discover that he had similar talents (candidness which took a moral courage under Stalin** and operational level capabilities) on his General Staff in the Operations Directorate in Generals Vatutin and Vasilevsky. Vatutin could have also matched Zhukov's ruthlessness which probably galvinized the Red Army's defenses on the approaches to Moscow whereas Vasilevsky may have been short in this aspect.

                Stalin could have given Timoshenko another chnace here, and he may have done better on the defensive than he does later at Kharkov on the offensive.

                **Rokossovsky and Konev later in the war as Front commanders demonstrate a moral courage to take decisions contrary to Stalin's position in planning the summer of 1944 operations. Joea, for operational level warfare, we could match either of these Marshals, as well as Zhukov, against the other forum's contenters.

                rna
                Hmmm.... At first, it was Zhukov who organized the first successful offensive against the Germans in WWII - I mean Yelnia Offensive Operation. It was in Moscow direction.

                At second, to mention Zhukov's Khalkhin-Gol experience speaking about the Battle for Moscow is very strange. Bu the time of the Battle for Moscow in October-December of 1941 Zhukov organized 4 successful actions -

                1. Counterblow of mech corpss in the Ukraine which saved Kiev. It let to Kirponos to hold Kiev in thefirst months of the war.

                2. He stopped the first German rush to Moscow in Smolensk Battle.

                3. Yelnia Offensive Operation

                4. he organized the defence of Leningrad and saved the city.

                Also right before the war Zhukov organized the transferring of 5 Armies of internal military districts closer to Western borders. Those 5 Armies saved the USSR after the collapse of the Soviet troops in Byelorussia. They stopped the Germansin the region of Smolensk and gave the USSR time to prepare new troops.

                So by October of 1941 Zhukov had much to be proud by than the Khalkhin-Gol Victory.

                What you call ruthlessness I call resolution and strength of mind. It is not the same.

                In the time of collapse everywhere Zhukov's resolution gave to people the hope. They saw that somebody knew what to do.

                Zhukov's huge contribution to Moscow Victory is indisputable.

                Comment


                • #9
                  R.N. Armstrong

                  Hey, you caught that one, somewhat accurate as well, good catch!!
                  My main thought on this is, if you had to TRUST one commander to run this battle, who would it be? Now, considering the results of a lost battle for Moskow is up to debate, that should be another thread, if you want. Lets just say it would have been a very bad thing for Russia, and probably the Allies as well.....

                  Now, with this in mind, WW II for the Russians (and maybe change the other Allies outcome) might have been lost, if the battle for Moskow was not won.... Who would you trust, a commander who "might/could" win or one with a proven track record of getting the job done, and yes, without regards for the "cost" involved. I hav'nt read to much on Stalin, but it seems he chose the right man for this very critical job. everyone benefited in the long run, Russia won the war. Now if your focus is on the indivigual Russian soldier in that battle, that might be a different story. But again, they won the battle and later the war, so some Russians must have been "saved", like the whole country, compared to losing the Moskow battle and WW II.

                  Cheers, very broad strokes here, but I hope you know what I mean.

                  Good post, thanks again.

                  Tom

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Andrey

                    Thanks for your post, very informative!!

                    Cheers

                    Tom

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ok gentlemen, he has posted his findings,the first part. They are underwhelming to say the least. They are focused on tactical and early war and seem to be the German POV rehashed.

                      @Kunikov, this fellow takes a long time because he seems to take print articles from journals or rather magazines not available on the net and bases his writing...or just retypes the article. As this is a naval simulation forum he posted naval "history" including trivia like the fact the HMS Fiji supposedly torpedoed herself in the Caribbean and was out of action for the whole war. Except she was sunk in Crete in 1941, and when I proved it, was never acknowledged. Well that and his very annoying use of smilies sprinkled through the text, which he does less of late.

                      @Richard and Andrey, I took some of your points in my first post on that thread...and will use your other posts and info (sources) you and others provided...with credit where due, I will point to the better historians and articles, including linking to Richard's articles and Glantz's...where appropriate.

                      I am willing to bet in fact this guy will post something by our "favourite" Russian revisionist defector ... Suvarov. Who agrees with me?

                      http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...5/m/2051013406

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How much freedom did Zhukov have in choosing his key subordinates? I've regarded ther artillery officer Nikolai Voronov as just as important as Zhukov in Moscows defense. His reorganization of the artillery and changes of tactical doctrine came shortly before the critical weeks of the battle.

                        A commanders skill is usually reflected in the men he chooses to assist him. Were leaders like Voronov called on by Zhukov, or were they sent to him?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                          How much freedom did Zhukov have in choosing his key subordinates? I've regarded ther artillery officer Nikolai Voronov as just as important as Zhukov in Moscows defense. His reorganization of the artillery and changes of tactical doctrine came shortly before the critical weeks of the battle.

                          A commanders skill is usually reflected in the men he chooses to assist him. Were leaders like Voronov called on by Zhukov, or were they sent to him?
                          From what I remember a lot of times when Commanders switched commands, Army level for example, many of their subordinates would be taken with them or would be requested to be transfered to them.
                          Last edited by Kunikov; 07 Nov 07, 06:34.
                          "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                          "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                          "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Carl and Kunikov

                            Some "extra" info, this thread may grow into something beyond the original intent, very cool that!!

                            Cheers, Zhukov for President..... Just kidding!!

                            TRDG

                            Tom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Something which hasn't been mentioned, and for which as I understand it Zhukov was responsible, is the restructuring of Soviet armies in the late summer of 1941 to make them more responsive to the Soviet command structure; that is, disbanding the corps structure and developing tank brigades in preference to the tank divisions. In hindsight those reforms may seem obvious and maybe even inevitable, but to commit to them in the middle of a military disaster with the war only weeks old took nerve and foresight.
                              "Freedom of thought is the only guarantee against infection of peoples by the mass myths, which, in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues, can be transformed into bloody dictatorships."
                              Hero of the Soviet Union, Andrei Sakharov 1968

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