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T-44 and JS3 in combat?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bruno View Post
    The main meeting of Israelian armour with IS 3 was at Rafah Junction/El Arish (30 IS 3M supporting the Egyptian 7th Inf. Div.) in 1967.
    Very few of the attacking Pattons had 105mm guns at this time. And the 90mm gun was hardly effective against the IS3. They knocked them out by shooting the external fuel tanks.

    About T44, it saw action in 1956 during the Hungarian Uprising. And surely did shot in anger...

    Thanks for the interesting info about the T-44 in Hungary. I do recall seeing photos of Soviet tanks there, but couldn't remember any of the T-44. Can you point us to some?
    Last edited by panther3485; 24 Dec 07, 05:57.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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    • #32
      Hummm, really demanding !
      Is that OK for you ?

      That's one of the nicest pic of my collection. It's my screen saver.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Bruno View Post
        Hummm, really demanding !
        Is that OK for you ?

        That's one of the nicest pic of my collection. It's my screen saver.
        Nice picture, Bruno and thanks. I think this will become my desktop background picture for a while now.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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        • #34
          There is a german account allegedly confirming the use of JS 2 in WW2

          Following a visit of the Berlin Karlshorst commemoration site (which shows a JS II on display, among others) I have been seriously busy with the question whether the JS 3 tank saw action in WW II or not for quite some time and as a result of my research accidentally hit one corresponding account of a german officer fighting in Pomerania in late April 1945 that allegedly confirms the use (and some losses) of JS III tanks in service with the red army. It seemed to somewhat incredible to me at first, but the accuracy and details of the report soon more or less wished away my doubts (the fact official russian archives obviously do not account for any mission of the JS does not necessarily mean such action did not did place, since the russian (formerly soviet) pratice of withholding documents is well known, although it has seen some ease over the last decades).
          However, this report was published in a "Landser"-magazine that ought to be considered as "common literature" rather than a scientifically reliable source. "Landser"-magazins were issued in Germany in very large numbers in the 50ies and 60ies, giving so-called eye-witness accounts of WW occurrences, mostly from the point of view of german soldiers.
          They are currently being reprinted. This being said and despite the prejudices that prevail in my country regarding the "Landser" (which however often have an ideological background), one should not mistake it for a purely gossip publication, since the spectrum of former soldiers who wrote stories for the "Landser" ranged from ordinary privates up to high ranking officers. It may hence be stated the reports (or stories) often showing a rather high level of expression and language-style; in other cases, of course, they betray the quite modest educational background of the author, which nontheless does not make the reports generally unreliable.
          The report accounting for the use of JS3 in the battle of Pomerania was written by an officer, as the text reveals. Also, the report comprises some 64 pages, which are basically dedicated to the units` fighting against the JS 3 over a longer period of time.
          I will check my archives at home to tell you the number of the volume concerned, which I kept (it is written in german, however).

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          • #35
            There is a german account allegedly confirming the use of JS 3 in WW2

            ...correction of the headline: Of course it must read "...confirming the use of JS 3".

            Regards

            Grd.

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            • #36
              IS-3 was reported by several German units, both in Pomerania to the north and in Vienna to the south, but none of those sightings are confirmed by ANY Soviet source - and the Vienna sighting is definitely bogus, because we can track the equipment of every Soviet tank unit that was there.
              In fact, I have identified four Guards Heavy Tank Regiments that were sent to the rear in 1945 to be retrained and re-equipped with the iS-3. They were:
              35th Guards Tank Regiment - sent back to the Belorussian-Litovsk District on 20 April 1945
              67th and 113th Guards Tank Regiments, both sent back to the L'vov District on 21 April 1945
              113th Guards Tank Regiment, formed from the 121st Guards SU Regiment in February 1945 and never returned to the front.
              Note that none of these units returned to the front, or even to the command of any H in the Active Army at the front, before the war ended.
              Interestingly, there are NO heavy tank regiments that go into reserve in late 1944-early 1945 and then return to the front, so there was no opportunity for a unit to be equipped and trained on the new vehicles and then get back into the fight before the war (in Europe) ended.
              Finally, none of this means that knowledge of the IS-3 was absent from front-line Soviet tankers, and therefore available to the Germans from POW reports. Remember that part of the training of Soviet tank crewmen took place at the tank factories, so members in training in late 1944 could very likely have seen IS-3s being assembled and taken that knowledge back to the front before the end of the war. I have copies of POW interrogations from early 1943 in which Soviet tankers described the new "T-43" tank to the Germans - a vehicle that was only built as a prototype and never fielded at all! It would not surprise me at all to find similar reports on the IS-3 being built in much larger numbers just before the war ended...

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              • #37
                " ... the first batch of IS-3 tanks left the plant's workshops in late May 1945. They saw no action in the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan."

                Page 77, 'The IS Tanks - IS-1, IS-2, IS-3', Mikhail Baryantinskiy, Ian Allan Publishing, 2006.

                That's good enough for me. There were NO IS-3 tanks fighting in WW2. Period. End of story.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                  " ... the first batch of IS-3 tanks left the plant's workshops in late May 1945. They saw no action in the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan."

                  Page 77, 'The IS Tanks - IS-1, IS-2, IS-3', Mikhail Baryantinskiy, Ian Allan Publishing, 2006.

                  That's good enough for me. There were NO IS-3 tanks fighting in WW2. Period. End of story.
                  WHY should this be the end of the story, expressed with such certainty ? Is this a dogmatic issue to you !?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 08-15 View Post
                    WHY should this be the end of the story, expressed with such certainty ? Is this a dogmatic issue to you !?
                    No, it's not really 'dogmatic' as such. It's just that I've heard and read these stories so many times before (about IS-3 in combat just before the end of the war in Europe) and they have always ultimately turned out to be lacking in substance. It's got to the stage where I have now become very impatient with them. You know, something along the lines of, "Oh no, not that fairytale again!"
                    In other words, I am 100 percent convinced it's a myth and I do not believe anyone will ever produce proof to the contrary.
                    However, if anyone does produce proof that the IS-3 did fight in the GPW, then I will issue a public apology and if it is you who produces the proof, I will apologize personally to you also.
                    I think my position is completely safe, though.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                    • #40
                      I'd have to agree with Panther. Baryatinsky is one of the most highly regarded Russian researchers writing on the subjects. If he is that comfortable with making such an unequivocal statement, I would wager he is correct.

                      Cheers
                      Scott Fraser
                      Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                      A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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                      • #41
                        One factor not mentioned as to why IS-3 were not used in Berlin and Pommerania is that U.S. Inteligence teams were operating particularly in Berlin in the aftermath of the fighting and literally in one case picked up intel. in the shape of a IS2 turret. I would imagine that had any IS3 wrecks been around they would have all over them. While the story of the IS2 turret has been known for many years, nothing seems to have been released as to it fate, so it is not impossible that evidence could exist however I think it is unlikely IS3s were used in WW2.

                        Steve

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