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  • Chuikov - Stalingrad

    Hi:

    The following was posted on http://www.ww2f.com/russia-war/19220...talingrad.html, by Michael K. Jones, author of "Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed".

    "During 14-15 October the Soviet position looked so bleak that Chuikov - Stalingrad's commander - twice requested permission to move his HQ to the eastern bank of the Volga, which would have been tantamount to surrendering the city. Permission was refused - and somehow the defenders hung on."

    It does not seem like Chuikov.

    Any comments?

    Regards,

    John
    Stranger! To Sparta say, her faithful band,
    Here lie in death, remembering her command.

    www.wwii-photos-maps.com

  • #2
    Didnt he have wery big problems with keeping communications in stalingrad and wanted to move to eastern side to ease up the communications?

    Im not sure, just a thing remember from a book on Stalingrad (forgot wich and Im at work) but I think it was that and that hes HQ bunker was under fire from time to time and he had to send out officers and other personel from the bunker into the fights.

    Could be a good reason why he wanted to move across IMO.

    /Thomas
    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...ussianppsh.jpg
    www.reenactor.se

    Comment


    • #3
      The best result of this is that this reinforced Hitler's "stand fast" attitude that greatly helped the Soviet Union later.

      Comment


      • #4
        Chuikov

        Hi:

        It is my impression that Chuikov was selected for the position in Stalingrad because he was the type of general to never give up. I thought he was specifically told not to leave Stalingrad for any reason and he agreed.

        It just seems odd he would request permission to move his headquarters to the east bank for any reason.

        It may not have been him, but one of the generals moved his headquarters from the left to the right and then back again as it was the only way to get where he wanted to go.

        Regards,

        John
        Stranger! To Sparta say, her faithful band,
        Here lie in death, remembering her command.

        www.wwii-photos-maps.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John Calvin View Post
          Hi:

          It is my impression that Chuikov was selected for the position in Stalingrad because he was the type of general to never give up. I thought he was specifically told not to leave Stalingrad for any reason and he agreed.

          It just seems odd he would request permission to move his headquarters to the east bank for any reason.

          It may not have been him, but one of the generals moved his headquarters from the left to the right and then back again as it was the only way to get where he wanted to go.

          Regards,

          John
          Lopatin, cdr of 62nd Army, went to Eremenko and said he had lost confidence in his ability to hold Stalingrad. Eremenko and Khrushchev decided and interviewed Chuikov for the position. They, like you said, thought his dynamic manner outweighed his liabilities in temperment. Chuikov took command of 62nd in Sept 1942.

          Khrushchev talks about asking Stalin for permission to move the Front HQ out of Stalingrad, and K tells Stalin that Chuikov and 62nd Army have taken control of the defense of Stalingrad.

          rna
          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by John Calvin View Post
            ... Michael K. Jones, author of "Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed".
            "During 14-15 October the Soviet position looked so bleak that Chuikov - Stalingrad's commander - twice requested permission to move his HQ to the eastern bank of the Volga, which would have been tantamount to surrendering the city. Permission was refused - and somehow the defenders hung on."...
            that's Michael Jones for you, gentlemen... - he is the next Beevor, no doubt about it.
            he wrote another derogatory piece of crap the West has been fed all these years.
            his main intention was to show how ''desperate'' things were for the Red Army back then.
            clearly, he attempts to belittle Red Army's victory in that battle by using such word as ''desperate''.

            Comment


            • #7
              Chuikov - Stalingrad

              Hi:

              I was hoping for specific references regarding Chuikov's command at Stalingrad, supporting the position that he did, or did not, request permission to leave the city. I am of the opinion that he did not, but I am willing to listen to citations of primary sources that disagree.

              What I was not interested in was another diatribe against non-Russian historians. Proving a historian bases his pronouncements on poor research, or, in some cases, no research at all, is much more effective in suggesting professional incompetence than saying he writes 'derogatory crap'.

              I recently read a 'western' author's book on the Battle of Stalingrad that was so patently inconsistent with uncontestable historical facts, that I wrote to the publishing company in the UK telling them it was the worst case of editing I had ever seen. The responded denying any connection with the editing.

              Regards,

              John
              Stranger! To Sparta say, her faithful band,
              Here lie in death, remembering her command.

              www.wwii-photos-maps.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by stalin View Post
                that's Michael Jones for you, gentlemen... - he is the next Beevor, no doubt about it.
                he wrote another derogatory piece of crap the West has been fed all these years.
                his main intention was to show how ''desperate'' things were for the Red Army back then.
                clearly, he attempts to belittle Red Army's victory in that battle by using such word as ''desperate''.
                Wow thanks for that breakdown, for some reason, no doubt all of that evil Western propaganda, I actually believed that there were times after the Nazi invasion when the Soviets faced many desperate moments.

                I always had the utmost respect for the Soviet people and military (if not the leadership) for its determination and refusal to give up - when letís face it many other countries probably would have. Similarly I thought many others also respected them for that same determination and sacrifice in the face of such setbacks, difficulties and brutality.

                So if my reading of it was wrong Ė is that respect misplaced for a rather easy Soviet victory? Oh and how come so many Soviets died in such a non-desperate situation
                "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                G.B Shaw

                "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sergio View Post
                  ... there were times after the Nazi invasion when the Soviets faced many desperate moments...
                  however, being ''desperate'' is not a Slavic trait at all.
                  we Russians may be terrified or sorrowful but never ''desperate'' -
                  that's the way we are.

                  btw, because of lack of so-called ''desperation'' J.Stalin had to issue a ''Not a Step Back'' order.
                  too bad our Mike Jones somehow managed to remain ignorant of the above mentioned facts.
                  or maybe, he is merely a cheat and not researcher at all -
                  and therefore deserves nothing but a slap on his ******* ??

                  MODERATOR'S NOTICE:
                  NO Anti-semitism, or any other form of racisim is allowed here!!!
                  AMVAS


                  Originally posted by Sergio View Post
                  ... how come so many Soviets died in such a non-desperate situation...
                  because we had to destroy 80% of the Nazi Army which was the best army of all times.
                  Last edited by amvas; 23 Sep 07, 00:32.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    stalin

                    Interesting post you have there, I'm serious, is that meant to insult, or a way of expressing your feelings on this.
                    For me, it does "kinda" work in one of those ways, but not the other. Do you understand what I mean? There are better ways to ask a posters intent, rather than assume you know. Try it, it may make your next post a little more believable to others who view your posts with interest, I am one of them.
                    I am not a professional researcher or historian, just a guy with an interest in WW II in many areas. That "Jewish" comment can be taken in many ways........

                    "desperation" would be another, this is way off topic here and not my thread, if it was, I would have a lot more to say, but as it is.......

                    Feel free to reply, or start your own thread on this, either would work for me.

                    Respectfully

                    TOM YOUNG, TRDG

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Stalin, I think you misunderstand what is meant by desperate here.
                      http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/desperate

                      Definitions 3, 4, and 5 could apply to the situation of the USSR in late summer and fall of 1942.

                      3 : suffering extreme need or anxiety <desperate for money>
                      4 : involving extreme danger or possible disaster <a desperate situation>
                      5 : of extreme intensity
                      3-extreme need to make a stand and stop giving up territory, thus Stalin's "Not One Step Back" order, which I now think was justified and necessary.

                      4-Extreme danger...well I guess the whole war prior to 42-43 as the Slavs faced extermination

                      5-Most intense front in WWII no question

                      The first definition of lacking hope I can agree there never was no hope...if there had been the Soviets would have given up completely.

                      The Jewish comment was unnecessary...after all how do you know this fellow is Jewish and what difference would it make to his book??

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Anti-Semitism

                        Hi:

                        "too bad our Mike Jones somehow managed to remain ignorant of the above mentioned facts.
                        or maybe, he is merely a cheat and not researcher at all -
                        and therefore deserves nothing but a slap on *****??"

                        Where is the forum host when posts are allowed that include anti-semitic content? This in completely unacceptable.

                        Regards,

                        John.
                        Last edited by amvas; 23 Sep 07, 00:33.
                        Stranger! To Sparta say, her faithful band,
                        Here lie in death, remembering her command.

                        www.wwii-photos-maps.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by stalin View Post
                          that's Michael Jones for you, gentlemen... - he is the next Beevor, no doubt about it.
                          he wrote another derogatory piece of crap the West has been fed all these years.
                          his main intention was to show how ''desperate'' things were for the Red Army back then.
                          clearly, he attempts to belittle Red Army's victory in that battle by using such word as ''desperate''.

                          So their victory over Germany was easy then ?

                          I guess I no longer have to admire the Red Army's performance in the Great Patriotic War.

                          Thanks for the clarification.
                          Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Calvin View Post
                            Hi:

                            I was hoping for specific references regarding Chuikov's command at Stalingrad, supporting the position that he did, or did not, request permission to leave the city. I am of the opinion that he did not, but I am willing to listen to citations of primary sources that disagree.

                            What I was not interested in was another diatribe against non-Russian historians. Proving a historian bases his pronouncements on poor research, or, in some cases, no research at all, is much more effective in suggesting professional incompetence than saying he writes 'derogatory crap'.

                            I recently read a 'western' author's book on the Battle of Stalingrad that was so patently inconsistent with uncontestable historical facts, that I wrote to the publishing company in the UK telling them it was the worst case of editing I had ever seen. The responded denying any connection with the editing.

                            Regards,

                            John
                            John,

                            I think the era of judging a book by its publisher is gone. I remember when one could take a Praeger book as the leading edge of intellectual pursuit in a subject. Not any more. One has to read the bilbliography and footnotes and be current on the literature to judge the true efficacy of a work.

                            We are chasing truths much like the Elizabethans.

                            rna
                            Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Calvin View Post
                              Hi:

                              "too bad our Mike Jones somehow managed to remain ignorant of the above mentioned facts.
                              or maybe, he is merely a cheat and not researcher at all -
                              and therefore deserves nothing but a slap on ***** ??"

                              Where is the forum host when posts are allowed that include anti-semitic content? This in completely unacceptable.

                              Regards,

                              John.
                              I agree. Lets call trash, trash!! Time in a penalty box.

                              rna
                              Last edited by amvas; 23 Sep 07, 00:32.
                              Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                              Comment

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