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Kursk, Prochorovka Battle, tank ramming?

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  • Kursk, Prochorovka Battle, tank ramming?

    Does anyone happen to know anything about this topic in the Kursk Battle?

    Did General Hausser's fourth Panzer Army have to deal with this going against Prochorovka's Fifth Guards Tank Army? There are "reports" of this, but how common was it? Is this another myth here, or something else.......

    Comments please?

    amvas?

    Cheers, Tequila Tom

  • #2
    Originally posted by TRDG View Post
    Does anyone happen to know anything about this topic in the Kursk Battle?

    Did General Hausser's fourth Panzer Army have to deal with this going against Prochorovka's Fifth Guards Tank Army? There are "reports" of this, but how common was it? Is this another myth here, or something else.......

    Comments please?

    amvas?

    Cheers, Tequila Tom
    Recently two very good research books were published on this topic written by V. Zamulin and L.Lopukhovsky.
    I'm not sure I can in brief cite both of them

    I remember the 5th GTA met with 2nd SS Pz.Corps on July 12.
    Earlier that area was defended by the troops of the 6nd Gds. Army, 1st Tank Army and 7th Gds. Army (a bit later on July 10-11 the 5th Gds. Army arrived)

    Regards
    Alex
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TRDG View Post
      Does anyone happen to know anything about this topic in the Kursk Battle?

      Did General Hausser's fourth Panzer Army have to deal with this going against Prochorovka's Fifth Guards Tank Army? There are "reports" of this, but how common was it? Is this another myth here, or something else.......

      Comments please?

      amvas?

      Cheers, Tequila Tom
      I'm sure in the midst of battle somewhere, some ramming might have occurred. One or two might even have been deliberate.

      The problem is that the vision of Red Army tanks ramming Nazi tanks had taken on a lot of propaganda hue, and thus become a myth of Red Army tenacity and bravery.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
        I'm sure in the midst of battle somewhere, some ramming might have occurred. One or two might even have been deliberate.

        The problem is that the vision of Red Army tanks ramming Nazi tanks had taken on a lot of propaganda hue, and thus become a myth of Red Army tenacity and bravery.
        I agree that around Prokhorovka battle exists too much myths. But that myths are not about tenacity and bravery. The 6th Gds. Army and 1st Tank army soldiers showed enough of those. But commander of the 5th GTA Rotmistrov in his memoirs tried to overestimate the role of his army in breaking of German plans. That's the sourse of many myths..
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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        • #5
          No real hard "facts" here, but I remember various books from the past (many years ago) that discussed this "tactic" that the Russians used specifically in that battle.

          Both German and Russian tank crews have mentioned it. I can't really place where I have seen this, but the jist of it was that it was a tactic employed by the Russians in a final, desperate act. Out of ammo, gun shot away, turret jammed and simply having their shells bounce off the German armour, no effect kind of idea here. It was like " nothing left to lose here, I'm close to that damb German tank, nothing else works, lets ram them!!!".

          Anyone else remember anything like this?

          I have had other people swearing that a German Pak 43/41 AT gun could/would never fire a "bombardment" in the Eastern front. That's from a game forum I know, but compare that to an "88" and their common use in this capasity. Sorry for the topic switch there guys, but it all kind of ties things together in a roundabout way. Maybe I'm just mixing up the facts from what I remember way back when. But I thought it would be nice to see what others think about this topic on fact or myth.

          Cheers

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by amvas View Post
            I agree that around Prokhorovka battle exists too much myths. But that myths are not about tenacity and bravery. The 6th Gds. Army and 1st Tank army soldiers showed enough of those. But commander of the 5th GTA Rotmistrov in his memoirs tried to overestimate the role of his army in breaking of German plans. That's the sourse of many myths..
            I understand what you mean. The Red Army soldiers are definitely brave and tenacious.

            What I was referring to was more how their bravery and skill were used for crude propaganda to justify a distasteful regime that had almost led the country to disaster at the beginning of WW2. I think the mythology of Kursk had had too much of that already, and this tends to tar the efforts of the average soldier.

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            • #7
              1. There was a case when a driver of a burning tank drove it against a Tiger and both exploded. The tank driver got the rank of a Hero of Soviet Union (posthumous).

              2. Also I read about a ramming tactics. It was not like kamikaze.

              The idea was to break by your heading parts a track of an enemy tank.

              The heading part of the Sovet tanks (between the tracks) was relatively sharp. It was necessary to beat by this part in a German tank from side-ahead or side-back direction and to collide by this sharp part against an enemy track or wheel.
              Last edited by Andrey; 04 Sep 07, 05:39.

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              • #8
                Ogukuo 72

                I could see that other books might have this propaganda factored in, taking their sources as "the facts" in Kursk, depending on what those were.

                I really wish I would remember where I've seen it before! I'll have to start digging up the old books again and find out..... If they are not "lost" somewhere.

                Thanks for the post

                Cheers

                Comment


                • #9
                  Andrey

                  I beleave I read that somewhere as well. Did you by any chance read any of AmVAS's book picks? Any info there from Kursk?

                  Cheers

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TRDG View Post
                    I beleave I read that somewhere as well. Did you by any chance read any of AmVAS's book picks? Any info there from Kursk?

                    Cheers
                    The ramming tank attacks are described in Popel's memoirs.

                    I haven't read the books mentioned by Amvas.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TRDG View Post
                      I could see that other books might have this propaganda factored in, taking their sources as "the facts" in Kursk, depending on what those were.
                      It was not propaganda.

                      For example, have you heard about Alexander Matrosov?

                      He covered by his body the ambrasure of an enemy bunker and let to his comrades to rise in an attack.

                      There were a lot of such cases.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Andrey and propaganda.......

                        I'm not really talking about or questioning propaganda here. I beleave it was in response to Ogukuo 72s post about it.

                        Tank ramming did happen. Kursk is supposed to be where it happened a lot, it was a factor in the battle. The facts of it are........ No real clue here as of yet. Stories about it are fine, but there must be some record or recollection of it somewhere from someone, hopefully from someone on the forum here.

                        Hav'nt heard of Alexander Matrosov, sadly. I have mostly read the Armour accounts from the German point of view so far in the Eastern Front. Let me know if you have any suggestions on sites or books and I'll try to check it out!

                        Thanks for the post!

                        Cheers

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TRDG View Post
                          I'm not really talking about or questioning propaganda here. I beleave it was in response to Ogukuo 72s post about it.

                          Tank ramming did happen. Kursk is supposed to be where it happened a lot, it was a factor in the battle. The facts of it are........ No real clue here as of yet. Stories about it are fine, but there must be some record or recollection of it somewhere from someone, hopefully from someone on the forum here.

                          Hav'nt heard of Alexander Matrosov, sadly. I have mostly read the Armour accounts from the German point of view so far in the Eastern Front. Let me know if you have any suggestions on sites or books and I'll try to check it out!

                          Thanks for the post!

                          Cheers
                          1. Here are a few names that were known to every Sovit in the Soviet time

                          Matrosov - I have described hie feat.

                          Gastello - in one of the first days of the war Captain Gastello leaded his burning bomber on a column of German troops.

                          Talalikhin - he made a successful night ram attack against a German bomber during the repelling of the German Air Offensive against Moscow in 1941.

                          Klochkov - during the battle for Moscow Politruk Klockov and 28 soldiers stopped a few dozens of German tanks nearly of a village Dubosekovo. The most of the Soviet soldiers were killed.

                          2. I didn't hear that Red Army used tank ramming too often. It was done only in extraordinary caes. I think it was a German myth.

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                          • #14
                            Andrey, thanks for the info

                            Those are some very good acts of bravery, hats off to them, respectfully.

                            On the tank issue, was'nt Kursk an exception, rather than the rule here. That was an extreme battle I would think. I get that it was rarely used by the Russians in general on German tanks. That is why Kursk sticks out so much, amung other things, at least to me.

                            That "myth" thing is really killing me here on this subject. Are any of the thoughts or books that you and amvas mentioned translated in english? On a site somewhere? Or you guys might know someone who read any of those?

                            I'm just asking here.... Any hope at all?

                            Thanks for your posts, they help and kind of tease ya at the same time, but that's the way it is sometimes.

                            Have a good evening/morning

                            Cheers

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TRDG View Post
                              Those are some very good acts of bravery, hats off to them, respectfully.

                              On the tank issue, was'nt Kursk an exception, rather than the rule here. That was an extreme battle I would think. I get that it was rarely used by the Russians in general on German tanks. That is why Kursk sticks out so much, amung other things, at least to me.
                              I didn't here it was done widely in Kursk battle. It happened very rarely.

                              That "myth" thing is really killing me here on this subject. Are any of the thoughts or books that you and amvas mentioned translated in english? On a site somewhere? Or you guys might know someone who read any of those?

                              I'm just asking here.... Any hope at all?

                              Thanks for your posts, they help and kind of tease ya at the same time, but that's the way it is sometimes.

                              Have a good evening/morning
                              "Russia at War" by Alexander Werth.

                              He wasn't in Kursk Arch during the defensive partt of the battle but he was in Moscow in that time and then he himself saw the liberation of Orel.

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