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  • Can anybody help in getting German maps???

    Hi, folks!

    Your assistance is needed very much!!!
    Can anybody get German operative maps 1:25,000, or 1:50,000
    for the area ~20-25km south-east from Yukhnov town (Kaluga area)?
    I need them to locate German positions on landscape.
    Combat operations took place there in January 1942. Approximately on Jan. 3-23.

    There existed a fortified nose of Germans in Upryamovo-Kudinovo-Zubovo area, which was attacked by the Soviet 217th and 340th Rifle Divisions/50th Army



    It's approximately marked with the red square.

    Exact coordinates can be found from the Google Earth image:


    Shot at 2007-08-07

    If anybody can help me I promise to do everything to help you!
    It's very important for me to find these maps in the nearest time


    Thx in advance

    Regards
    Alex

    P.S. If my operative scheme is correct there must be troops of the 36th Motorised Division (43rd Inf. corps/4th Army?). But Soviet data can be wrong in this case...
    Among opponents of the 50th Soviet Army there were also: 31,131,137,213,52nd Inf. Divisions and 19th Panzer Division. but I have absolutely no data where they were. I can only guess that 31,52,131,137th I.D. were more east from the target region.
    so, I can guess the most possible variants were the 19th Panzer Division and 36th Motorized Infantry Division
    Last edited by amvas; 07 Aug 07, 13:48.
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

  • #2
    http://www.google.com/search?q=1:25,...&start=10&sa=N

    This is a general link for maps. Do you need present day maps or historical maps? Russian made maps have usuall y been superior to most of the western maps. Have you checked Amazon? Here we can usually order 1/25000
    1/50000 from the book stores.

    HP
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
      http://www.google.com/search?q=1:25,...&start=10&sa=N

      This is a general link for maps. Do you need present day maps or historical maps? Russian made maps have usuall y been superior to most of the western maps. Have you checked Amazon? Here we can usually order 1/25000
      1/50000 from the book stores.

      HP
      No, no, I need historical maps, with marked positions of German troops.

      thx
      Alex
      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by amvas View Post
        No, no, I need historical maps, with marked positions of German troops.

        thx
        Alex
        I was afraid of that! I have no known sources. Perhaps ask the German Embassy in Moscow. They might be able to at least give you a lead. You can check at the Axis History Forum or Fieldgrau Forums they might be of more help.

        Sorry I couldn't help you.

        HP
        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
          I was afraid of that! I have no known sources. Perhaps ask the German Embassy in Moscow. They might be able to at least give you a lead. You can check at the Axis History Forum or Fieldgrau Forums they might be of more help.

          Sorry I couldn't help you.

          HP
          Embassy can do nothing...
          Only researchers in NARA, or Bundesarhcive can do anything...

          Yes, I have in mind Axishistory, or Feldgrau, but first of all I'm trying to find out any possibilities on my own forum

          thx
          Alex
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • #6
            Roughly the operation can be seen as follows:


            Shot at 2007-08-07

            zubovo is at the top of German nose...

            Regards
            Alex
            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't want to sound too pessimistic for you, but the most detail you will find in divisional records in NARA is most probably 100,000 except in some rare cases and exceptional events where you'll find 50,000 maps. But they usually will all be marked with situation markers.

              I actually have a bit of a 100,000 map, but of the area northwest of Iukhnov (the bend of the river Ugra), so sorry, can't help.

              The only thing that might look more promising is that the area around Moscow (or Leningrad) is better covered than the rest of the country (ie Rostov, Stalingrad, Kharkov, etc.)
              “Die in peace my brothers, but die quietly, so that we hear nothing but the faintest echo of your suffering…”

              Comment


              • #8
                If to follow recon report of the Army Group "Center" on Jan. 25 Upryamovo area was defended by the 131st Inf. Division.
                I also was told there was a zone of the 43rd Inf. Corps/4th Army (operative group of the 19th Pz. D., 31, 131 , 137 Inf. Div.)

                Regards
                Alex
                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trigger Happy View Post
                  I don't want to sound too pessimistic for you, but the most detail you will find in divisional records in NARA is most probably 100,000 except in some rare cases and exceptional events where you'll find 50,000 maps. But they usually will all be marked with situation markers.
                  In any case ANY map would be useful, even 100,000!


                  I actually have a bit of a 100,000 map, but of the area northwest of Iukhnov (the bend of the river Ugra), so sorry, can't help.


                  The only thing that might look more promising is that the area around Moscow (or Leningrad) is better covered than the rest of the country (ie Rostov, Stalingrad, Kharkov, etc.)
                  I hope so...
                  thx

                  Regards
                  Alex
                  If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Maps

                    Alex:

                    I have attached some maps I got from NARA. Are these an example of the kind of maps you are looking?

                    Regards,

                    John
                    Last edited by John Calvin; 06 Aug 08, 08:29.
                    Stranger! To Sparta say, her faithful band,
                    Here lie in death, remembering her command.

                    www.wwii-photos-maps.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by John Calvin View Post
                      Alex:

                      I have attached some maps I got from NARA. Are these an example of the kind of maps you are looking?

                      Regards,

                      John
                      Hi, John

                      Those maps shows positions of entire divisions, but not exactly where smaller units were disposed... I need maps, where bunkers, trenchers, MG nests, minefields are marked... That's my main goal...

                      thx
                      Alex
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John Calvin View Post
                        Alex:

                        I have attached some maps I got from NARA. Are these an example of the kind of maps you are looking?

                        Regards,

                        John
                        Do you use the copier there (15 cents a page) or use a digital camera to photograph the screen. I've always used the copier, but it gets pricey when you're copying something like an entire war diary!
                        "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by amvas View Post
                          Hi, folks!

                          Your assistance is needed very much!!!
                          There existed a fortified nose of Germans in Upryamovo-Kudinovo-Zubovo area, which was attacked by the Soviet 217th and 340th Rifle Divisions

                          P.S. If my operative scheme is correct there must be troops of the 36th Motorised Division (43rd Inf. corps/4th Army?). But Soviet data can be wrong in this case...
                          Among opponents of the 50th Soviet Army there were also: 31,131,137,213,52nd Inf. Divisions and 19th Panzer Division. but I have absolutely no data where they were. I can only guess that 31,52,131,137th I.D. were more east from the target region.
                          so, I can guess the most possible variants were the 19th Panzer Division and 36th Motorized Infantry Division
                          Alex, a quick check (1/12/41)on one of my many German sources, no 213th exists in the area, 36th mot. is WAY too far to the north (north of Dmitrov) to be in that area, 19th Pz. is near Naro-Fom; and the rest of the infantry divisions now appear to be under XIII Inf Korps in the Oka Rv. bend. I'll check some other sources.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Barbarossa View Post
                            Alex, a quick check (1/12/41)on one of my many German sources, no 213th exists in the area, 36th mot. is WAY too far to the north (north of Dmitrov) to be in that area, 19th Pz. is near Naro-Fom; and the rest of the infantry divisions now appear to be under XIII Inf Korps in the Oka Rv. bend. I'll check some other sources.
                            Our recent research resulted in getting more detailed information who could be there.
                            Now the most possible case is 74th Schutzen Regiment/19th Panzer Division



                            Scheme on Jan 18'42

                            Another candidate for been opponent of the Soviet troops in this region is the 131st Infantry Division supported with the 4th SS Regiment



                            Feb. 1'42

                            Thx...
                            Alex
                            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The top map is not in the area of question. However, you may have found something with the location of 4th SS Rgt "Der Fuhrer" from the 2nd SS Division, "Das Reich" commandedby Otto Kumm. This entire division however, withdrew to positions west of Gshatsk on 1/16/42 and took part in counter-attacks against Soviets that broke thru the Rzhev area.

                              Comment

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