Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

RKKA loses in Polish-Soviet war 1939

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
    Alex,

    Thanks for the posting. Great detail on the maps. Information on this operation has been thin--buried very deeply in the shadows of Barbarossa.

    Same lack of information on the Red Army move into Bessarabia. Is information on that operation coming to light? Especially the airborne part?

    Rick
    Yes, rick. this operation is almost unknown. It's menitoned very brief without omitting much details... Not sure those blanks will be filled in too soon.
    I can remember only Meltyukhov, who deals with this...

    Btw, it's also him to write a book about Bessarabia


    Regards,
    Alex
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Bartek View Post
      Lt Bolbot could be in battle shock (?) battle stress (?) and it's possible that he counted not very exactly,next problem is that some of that "dead bodies" were alive ,but too smart to made any moves under MGs' fire or wounded ones.
      But still is strange that the storm of fortified area costed RKKA less then defenders,who withdrawn at order after whole day fight.Ussually at such situations the losses of attacker are much more higher compare to defender.
      Japanese army at Iwo Jima and Okinawa losses were higher then USMC losses ,because it was impossible to withdrawn from islands after the ammo had ran out,but so long as Japanese hold the fortifications lines Americans were bleeding on each step forward.
      Soviet history is filled with "strange things"... So I would say we can't be sure who are right just for that case. Probably Soviet reports, probably Polish. to clarify this in general one should take records in RGVA archive and count the number of KIA in every unit, which took part in assault.
      Knowing a bit situation in RGVA I have to say it's not trivial task...
      Hardly any book can give exact figures using any other methods than usage of RGVA records

      Regards,
      Alex
      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by amvas View Post
        Hardly any book can give exact figures using any other methods than usage of RGVA records

        Regards,
        Alex
        Is it true that RKKA hadn't used dog's tags ( totenkapsel ) for it's soldiers ?
        In that situation the case is clear , no paper,no ID = no man .
        Guerrero contra marxismo

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bartek View Post
          Is it true that RKKA hadn't used dog's tags ( totenkapsel ) for it's soldiers ?
          In that situation the case is clear , no paper,no ID = no man .
          No, in RKKA there was such a sort of records. But there are several moments, which seriously affects on this.
          i) Soviet soldiers had to fill in that tags themselves. And large percent took this as evil omen. When dead bodies are found on battlefields very rarely that tugs could be found filled. Germans did better, they used numbreed tags.

          ii) Soviet tags were made from plastic and looked like a tube containing a list of paper with filled personal info. But after 50-60 years in ground it's very lucky case, when those tags could be read. Often only paper dust could be found there... Again, Germans aluminium tags were much more suitable for this purpose.

          iii) Also take into acocunt very poor state of Soviet military records.
          Some units have their archival funds totally empty!
          For example, one veteran asked us to search for any info about his award, which he was told to win in 1941. But my friend working in archive even couldn't find listing of personnel for that unit (8th Mechanised Corps)!

          I can't say exactly was the situation the same in 1939, because it's a bit out of my field of research.

          Regards,
          Alex
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • #20
            I can add that these "totenkapsels" were used before the middle, maybe until the end of 1942. Starting from the middle of 1942, "Red Army man card" was used. This was a small booklet printed on ordinary paper. In bad conditions, it became worthless much rapidly than a plastic "totenkapsel". Example of "totenkapsel" (fortunately filled) can be seen here:

            Examples of "Red Army man card" are shown here: http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/krasnoarm-knizka.shtml. BTW, it is written there that numbreed metal tags were also used in RKKA in 1930s but only when a soldier was sent out his unit. In other time, his tag was kept in the unit chancellery. Strange system...
            Last edited by amvas; 09 Jun 07, 13:59.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Vitaly View Post
              I can add that these "totenkapsels" were used before the middle, maybe until the end of 1942. Starting from the middle of 1942, "Red Army man card" was used. This was a small booklet printed on ordinary paper. In bad conditions, it became worthless much rapidly than a plastic "totenkapsel". Example of "totenkapsel" (fortunately filled) can be seen here: www.salt.orthodoxy.ru/memory/06_spring/2006_spring_12.jpg.

              Examples of "Red Army man card" are shown here: http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/krasnoarm-knizka.shtml. BTW, it is written there that numbreed metal tags were also used in RKKA in 1930s but only when a soldier was sent out his unit. In other time, his tag was kept in the unit chancellery. Strange system...
              "Krasnoarmeyskaya knizhka" (what you called "Red Army card") is more equal to German "Soldatenbuch". It was personal document of the soviet soldier..
              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Vitaly View Post
                I can add that these "totenkapsels" were used before the middle, maybe until the end of 1942. Starting from the middle of 1942, "Red Army man card" was used. This was a small booklet printed on ordinary paper. In bad conditions, it became worthless much rapidly than a plastic "totenkapsel". Example of "totenkapsel" (fortunately filled) can be seen here:

                Examples of "Red Army man card" are shown here: http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/krasnoarm-knizka.shtml. BTW, it is written there that numbreed metal tags were also used in RKKA in 1930s but only when a soldier was sent out his unit. In other time, his tag was kept in the unit chancellery. Strange system...
                Strange,but very comfortable for commanders.They could report losses exactly so high or so low as they wanted or needed to report.
                Guerrero contra marxismo

                Comment


                • #24
                  Originally Posted by Bartek:
                  Strange, but very comfortable for commanders.They could report losses exactly so high or so low as they wanted or needed to report.
                  IMHO, it could seriously alter only the KIA identification. The common losses of a unit could easily be checked using different sources (records of additional personnel arrival, unit chancellery, rear service records (distribution of food, weapons, uniform, etc.), hospitalization records, funeral unit records, etc). Some problem can be if the additional personnel was introduced into the action immediately, just "from wheels", without time to record even the total number of new soldiers. As I know, it often happened in 1941-42. But it is not the case for 1939.

                  So, it would be possible to hide the losses only if the whole army is totally corrupted:-)

                  Comment


                  • #25
                    Originally posted by Vitaly View Post

                    So, it would be possible to hide the losses
                    Or the officers didn't take care about theirs soldiers.
                    Guerrero contra marxismo

                    Comment


                    • #26
                      Originally Posted by Bartek:
                      Or the officers didn't take care about theirs soldiers.
                      "take care" and war arithmetic (personnel debit/credit balance) are completely different things... I think that the Soviet officers (on average) took care about their soldiers not less than German officers (also on average) about German soldiers. But the Germans were more smart and accurate with personal identification of KIA.

                      Comment


                      • #27
                        To Bartek:

                        Yes, it was a system with many disadvantages.
                        But it was not designed for count of personnel. It was only for identification of dead bodies. Also It was designed not by officers, but for much higher officials.

                        I can say that losses reports was a multi-stage procedure.
                        Initially they were reported in daily operative documents. Then there was some summery losses reports where every lost soldier was counted and reason for his loss was mentioned. It was not possible to do under some circumstances (surrounding, loss of HQ et.al.)...
                        But system itself was enough effective. I also need to mention that personal checkout figures not always were in correspondence with those reported in summary operative reports. Differnces could be enough large.
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment


                        • #28
                          Yes,but that system allowed officers to lower the losses at combat reports,especially when they were affraid of punishment for too high losses.
                          Guerrero contra marxismo

                          Comment


                          • #29
                            Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                            Yes,but that system allowed officers to lower the losses at combat reports,especially when they were affraid of punishment for too high losses.
                            Practice showed that disagreement appeared on higher levels. i.e. if to sum total losses for all divisions of army they oculd differ from the figure army declared...
                            On lower levels it was not spread too much, because commanders knew, if they give incorrect numbers of manpower they would get too high combat mission, which they can't perform with manpower presented...

                            Regards,
                            Alex
                            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                            Comment

                            Latest Topics

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X