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RKKA loses in Polish-Soviet war 1939

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  • RKKA loses in Polish-Soviet war 1939

    Some contents are welcome.
    - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
    - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
    (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

    Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

  • #2
    Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
    Some contents are welcome.
    Red Army AFV Losses in 1939, september - october. Poland.
    ***************************************
    25th Tank Corps/Ukrainian Front

    1st Mot. Rfl. division. destroyed prime-mover "Komsomolets" (Negovice) Sept. 20

    15th Tank Corps Byelorussian Front

    27th Light Tank Bde, 20 Motorised Bde, 6 Cav. Corps

    Assault Grodno (09.19-09.22)

    Burnt 2 BT, 1 T-26, 1 BA-10
    Damaged 12 tanks and 1 armoured cars

    Other data damaged 19 tanks and 4 armoured cars, minimum 1 burnt

    Fightings in Avgustov woods (09.22-25)

    4 BT-7 hit mines

    24 ltbr, 2 CC UkrFront

    Collision between Germans and Polish forces in Lwow area (09.18)

    Burnt 1 BT-7, 2 BA-10
    Damaged 4 BA-10

    Other Data damaged 1 tank and 2 armoured cars

    09.19-09.20

    lost 1 BT-7

    45, 60 RD

    09.25 in area Kholm lost 2 T-37

    36 ltbr UkrFront

    By Sept. 28 lost 2 armored cars on hit mines

    7 and 8 tank regiment 3 CC 11 ARMY BelorusFront

    Vilno Assault (09.18 09.19)

    Damaged 5 tanks and 4 armoured cars, 1 tank burnt (09.18)


    Motorised detachment of the 16th Rfl. Corps. (Tank Bns of the 2nd & 100th RD; armored company/Recon Bn/2nd RD)

    Lida area fightings (09.19-09.22)

    Damaged one armoured cars and one tank.

    32 tbr BelorusFront

    Gorodec na Kroliewski fightings (09.21)

    Lost 3 tanks. Minimum 1 burnt.

    2 tbr BelorusFront

    Fightings in Avgustov woods (09.22)

    Damaged 4 BT-7, minimum 1 burnt (Internal explosion of ammo)

    411 tank batalion 52 RD

    Battle of Shatsk (Szatsk?, 09.28-09.29)

    Damaged 5 T-26 and 2 T-38

    253 rifle regiment 15 RC

    Vytochno fighting (10.01)

    1 T-37 burnt, 1 T-37 lost cap, one more tank unoperable

    143 RD

    Jablonski fighting (09.29)

    Damaged 3 tanks

    143 RD, 8 RD

    Biala-Podlaska fighting (09.30)

    Lost 3 tanks.

    Soviet data 17 tanks unreparable losses.
    ***************************

    Also you can see Melyukhov's book in russian
    http://militera.lib.ru/research/meltyukhov2/index.html

    regards,
    Alex
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #3
      What does it mean "unreparable lost " ?
      Tanks are very easy to repair,especially by "canibalization " ,from one tank we take turret,the engine from another,part to part ... and we've got the tank,sometimes almost at the battlefield.
      Guerrero contra marxismo

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bartek View Post
        What does it mean "unreparable lost " ?
        Tanks are very easy to repair,especially by "canibalization " ,from one tank we take turret,the engine from another,part to part ... and we've got the tank,sometimes almost at the battlefield.
        Structure of soviet losses reports for vehicles included "reparable" and "unreparable" losses. If vehicle could be repared by any means (taking reserve turret from another tank, or by something similiar) it was called reparable and time needed for repare and sort of repair (local, average, thorough) were given. If vehicle was "unreparable" that meant it couldn't be repared by any means (burnt, exploded, missed et.al.). Of course details from such a vehicle could be used for repair of other vehicles of the same (and not only the same) type, but they were not counted as tanks, but only as spares

        Regards,
        Alex
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

        Comment


        • #5
          I see.
          I've asked because Polish reports after the battle of Szack were about 8 tanks destroyed ( tank company from 411 tank bn supported by two rifles company ) on narrow dam and no less then 4 tanks destroyed at other places .
          Guerrero contra marxismo

          Comment


          • #6
            G.F. Krivosheev gives Soviet casualty figures for the Western Ukrainian and Belorussian Campaign, 17-25 Sept 1939 as:

            KIA - 852
            MIA/POW - 144
            WIA - 2,002

            In a total force strength of 466,516.


            rna
            Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

            Comment


            • #7
              I found this- http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/...hapter4_7.html

              1173 - all deaths
              302 - MIA/POW
              2383 - WIA
              - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
              - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
              (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

              Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                I found this- http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/...hapter4_7.html

                1173 - all deaths
                302 - MIA/POW
                2383 - WIA
                Here is small correction. The data from the article, table 94, you linked to:

                Fatal losses:
                killed - 973
                died of wounds - 102
                road acidents and other acidents - 76
                MIA - 302
                died of illness - 22
                TOTAL - 1475

                Medical losses:
                Wounded, burned, contusioned - 2002
                got ill - 381
                Kind regards
                Igor

                * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                  I found this- http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/...hapter4_7.html

                  1173 - all deaths
                  302 - MIA/POW
                  2383 - WIA
                  That is Krivosheev on your website reference. I quoted from his first edition. Those are revised figures from his second edition. I would certainly defer to his revision.

                  rna
                  Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There is something strange at Russians combat reports.
                    After the battle of fortified area "Sarny" Polish KOP (Border Guards) regiment reported 229 KIA,39 WIA, 301 MIA and POW.
                    At the evening of 19th September KOP regiment withdrawn from the battle ,totaly out of ammo.
                    Major part of Polish bunkers were blown up by Russians engineers with whole crew that's why there were more KIA then WIA on Polish side.
                    After the same battle Russian's 60th Rifle Division reported 17 KIA and 66 WIA.
                    And this is very strange ,infrantry was attacking fortified enemy and it's loses were 3 (three) times lower !
                    Only at Tynne direction Polish leutnant Bolbot reported more then 100 dead bodies in front of his bunker.After the ammo ran out his bunker was blown up with whole crew ( 50 men ) by Soviet enginners
                    Guerrero contra marxismo

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Few weeks ago I watched in TV program, about small skirmish near Lubartow (town north of Lublin. One Polish AT gun destroyed 9 Rusian tanks there, like Wittman in Villers-Bocage. First and last tank from column at start, and rest sistematicaly to the end.
                      I want to know which Soviet unit was there? Any idea?
                      - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
                      - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
                      (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

                      Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'll say figures of losses for the Soviet (and not only the soviet) army always are very disputable. My source was from my friend. So, I can't be absolutely sure in all those figures. Campaign of 1939 is not the most famous one here.
                        Btw, I suppose to have only one full book which is devoted to it (M. Kolomietz Czerwony Blietzkrieg" in Polish language.

                        Even archival materials can contain inexact figures.
                        For example to say exactly how many tanks were lost in this or that fight one should check reports of proper tank unit. Also it would be useful to chck some repair reports. Tanks were lost irreparably quite rarely. so, that could be 9 tanks were hit, but as the battlefield was left after the Soviet troops all of them got chances to be repared. what number of those tanks was irreparable, and what - not we can only guess now...

                        Returning to Polish reports I wonder, how could they count so exactly the losses of their opponents while sitting in bunkers? I feel it can be some trick.
                        Also the same sort of trick (not toor rare thing) could be with the number of Soviet losses. If the number was great for one day it could be spread for some next days as well..

                        Regards,
                        Alex
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment


                        • #13


                          Operations of the Byelorussians and Ukrainian Fronts

                          Losses of tanks.


                          Source: J. Magnuski, M. Kolomietz "Czerwony blietzkrieg", Warszawa, 1994

                          Regards,
                          Alex
                          Last edited by amvas; 08 Jun 07, 01:24.
                          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Alex,

                            Thanks for the posting. Great detail on the maps. Information on this operation has been thin--buried very deeply in the shadows of Barbarossa.

                            Same lack of information on the Red Army move into Bessarabia. Is information on that operation coming to light? Especially the airborne part?

                            Rick
                            Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by amvas View Post

                              Returning to Polish reports I wonder, how could they count so exactly the losses of their opponents while sitting in bunkers? I feel it can be some trick.
                              Also the same sort of trick (not toor rare thing) could be with the number of Soviet losses. If the number was great for one day it could be spread for some next days as well..

                              Regards,
                              Alex
                              Lt Bolbot could be in battle shock (?) battle stress (?) and it's possible that he counted not very exactly,next problem is that some of that "dead bodies" were alive ,but too smart to made any moves under MGs' fire or wounded ones.
                              But still is strange that the storm of fortified area costed RKKA less then defenders,who withdrawn at order after whole day fight.Ussually at such situations the losses of attacker are much more higher compare to defender.
                              Japanese army at Iwo Jima and Okinawa losses were higher then USMC losses ,because it was impossible to withdrawn from islands after the ammo had ran out,but so long as Japanese hold the fortifications lines Americans were bleeding on each step forward.
                              Guerrero contra marxismo

                              Comment

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