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  • #76
    Originally posted by stalin View Post
    1) For sources one should not take military fiction, but documents.
    2) The same kinds of them as those that made Cain kill Abel. Read [the] Bible, not ''The Winter War'' book which is a pure mockery and has nothing in common with reality.
    3) All these ''55 kitchens'' and ''razor or toothbrush'' [have] clogged your insight and you [have] finally stopped seeing the true nature of things.
    1) It looks good to me. Documents... from Soviet sources? After Chernobyl I dug my heels in as to expecting any 'truth' from Soviet sources. So you could say the Soviets shot themselves (badly) in the foot there. And that was in the 80s. Why should I expect anything better from earlier decades?
    2) My point is you hardly need any competition at all, let alone a 'cut-throat' one, to condemn and then execute a General who'd lost almost his entire division and yet managed to save his own skin.
    3) Oh I don't know. The '55 Field Kitchens' as the perceived crime as opposed to the real one is classic totalitarianism, rather like running down someone and killing them with your car and then being tried and executed because one of your headlights is or was not working. Maybe someone will come up with a song on this one day . Something like (to Nena's 99 LuftBallons):

    Hast du etwas Zeit für mich
    Dann singe ich ein Lied für dich
    Von 55 feldküchen
    Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
    Denkst du vielleicht g'rad an mich
    Dann singe ich ein Lied für dich
    Von 55 feldküchen
    Und dass so was von so was kommt

    55 feldküchen
    Auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
    Hielt man für Ufos aus dem All
    Darum schickte ein General
    'ne Fliegerstaffel hinterher
    Alarm zu geben, wenn es so wär
    Dabei war'n da am Horizont
    Nur 55 feldküchen

    55 feldküchen
    Jeder war ein großer Krieger
    Hielten sich für Captain Kirk
    Das gab ein großes Feuerwerk
    Die Nachbarn haben nichts gerafft
    Und fühlten sich gleich angemacht
    Dabei schoss man am Horizont
    Auf 55 feldküchen

    55 Kriegsminister -
    Streichholz und Benzinkanister -
    Hielten sich für schlaue Leute
    Witterten schon fette Beute
    Riefen Krieg und wollten Macht
    Mann, wer hätte das gedacht
    Dass es einmal soweit kommt
    Wegen 55 feldküchen

    1 Jahr Krieg
    Ließen keinen Platz für Sieger
    Kriegsminister gibt's nicht mehr
    Und auch keine Düsenflieger
    Heute zieh' ich meine Runden
    Seh' die Welt in Trümmern liegen
    Hab' 'nen Feldküche gefunden
    Denk' an dich und lass' ihn fliegen
    Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
    (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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    • #77
      “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

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      • #78
        Originally posted by General Staff View Post
        ... My point is you hardly need any competition at all...to condemn and then execute a General who'd lost almost his entire division and yet managed to save his own skin...
        why ''...to save his own skin'' - right away ?
        you are jumping to conclusions way too fast.
        $hit happens, and war is not exclusion here.

        Originally posted by General Staff View Post
        ... The '55 Field Kitchens' as the perceived crime as opposed to the real one is classic totalitarianism, rather like running down someone and killing them with your car and then being tried and executed because one of your headlights is or was not working...
        okay, and so what ?
        that's just the way things done over here.
        we're not brits or americans to care about an ''image'' of what's done.
        i.e. - we're just not into this ''image'' thing the rest of the world is crazy about.

        Originally posted by General Staff View Post
        ...55 feldküchen...
        that's the point.
        good song (shame i don't understand german).

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by stalin View Post
          1) Why ''...to save his own skin'' - right away ? You are jumping to conclusions way too fast. $hit happens, and war is not exclusion here.
          2) Okay, and so what ? That's just the way things are done over here. We're not Brits or Americans to care about an ''image'' of what's done.
          3) That's the point. Good song (shame I don't understand German).
          1) Because it does not look good when a divisional commander and 2 of his staff emerge from the pine forest with only 700 men out of an original 10-15,000. Very bad PR- for the General.
          2) It's not about image or Brits or Amis. It's about something far more simple and far less totalitarian- truth.
          3) Yes. You should try and pick up some. You obviously have a gift for languages and German remains the lingua franca in much of Central Europe. You can buy a railway ticket in Budapest if you speak Hungarian or German, but they won't sell you anything if you try to order it in Russian.
          Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
          (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
            ... Because it does not look good when a divisional commander and 2 of his staff emerge from the pine forest with only 700 men out of an original 10-15,000. Very bad PR- for the General..
            pr was bad -
            so, other ''competitors'' grasped on it and brought the guy to the scaffold.

            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
            ... It's not about image or Brits or Amis. It's about something far more simple and far less totalitarian- truth..
            frankly, who needs truth these days ?

            Originally posted by General Staff View Post
            ... You can buy a railway ticket in Budapest if you speak Hungarian or German, but they won't sell you anything if you try to order it in Russian.
            bastards !
            ungrateful swines !!

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by stalin View Post
              1) PR was bad - so, other ''competitors'' grasped on it and brought the guy to the scaffold.
              2) Frankly, who needs truth these days ?
              3) Bastards ! Ungrateful swine !!
              1) Then the 'cut throat' competition was to avoid execution. Which would lead one to believe Finnish/Western accounts of what an utter disaster this expedition really was, as opposed to the Soviet version- the '55 Field Kitchens Incident' (spoken of in the same way (and reverential tones) as the 'Nomonhan Incident' and in marked contrast a major Soviet success).
              2) Everyone. Especially former totalitarian states. It is the guide that will lead you out of those dark and deadly places.
              3) Yes. I know the feeling. If I stand outside a tavern in Wales I can hear them speaking English. As soon as I enter and speak English, they begin to try to talk in Welsh, though most of them don't really know it that well. And rather like Russians in Central Europe if I ask them for directions- no matter which city or continent- they will always tell me to go East.
              Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
              (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by stalin View Post
                frankly, who needs truth these days ?
                People who want to remain sane.

                Or do you want to deny the truth, and create a virtual one for your servants?
                “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
                  People who want to remain sane.
                  Yes, like me. I am beginning to wonder if I am suffering from combat fatigue. All those fronts to fight on...

                  But then again we must soldier on against the Totalitarian Hydra. Now would someone help me up and back on to my horse please...
                  Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                  (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Psycho View Post
                    First of all you are talking about 1941 and not 1939. I looked up unit strengths for Soviet divisions facing the Finns in the Winter War. There was no notes saying any units were understrength (and I can't think that they would send a 3000 strength division to fight when they obviously haven't been brought up to combat readiness). Of course to you all of this is probably crap since it wasn't from Soviet sources.
                    In 1939 there were the following staffs of a Soviet Rifle Division (according rkka.ru/iorg.htm):

                    - rifle regular "ordinary" division - staff of 14.08.1939 - 8,900 men
                    - rifle division of military time - staff #04/20-04/27, 04/29-04/38 of 13.09.1939 - 18,900 men
                    - rifle division of peaceful time - staff of 30.11.1939 - 6,000 men
                    - rifle division of peceful time - staff #5/1-5/7, 5/9,4/35/,4/38 of 30.11.1939 with the version of reinforcement - 5,850 men (inc 3,653 reservists) or 11,850 men (inc 9,653 reservists) after reinforcement
                    - rifle division of peceful time - staff #5/1, 5/51-5/58, 5/9,4/35/,4/48 of 03.12.1939 with the version of reinforcement - 3,000 men (inc 972 reservists) or 6,000 men (inc 3,972 reservists) after the 1st reinforcement or 12,000 men (inc 9,972 reservists) after the 2nd reinforcement

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                      ... Then the 'cut throat' competition was to avoid execution. Which would lead one to believe Finnish/Western accounts of what an utter disaster this expedition really was, as opposed to the Soviet version- the '55 Field Kitchens Incident'...
                      so, i better stick to soviet version that claims ''55 field kitchens incident'' as greatest victory in history.

                      Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                      ... If I stand outside a tavern in Wales I can hear them speaking English. As soon as I enter and speak English, they begin to try to talk in Welsh, though most of them don't really know it that well...
                      alas, exactly the same story any russian would get in - if takes a trip to western ukraine, not to mention hungary, poland etc.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by stalin View Post
                        So, I'd better stick to the Soviet version that claims the ''55 Field Kitchens Incident'' as the greatest victory in history.
                        No. The ''55 Field Kitchens Incident''- known to the Finns as the "Battle of Suomussalmi"- could maybe be considered one of the most justified courts martial in history (amongst others).
                        Last edited by General Staff; 13 Jun 07, 07:57.
                        Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                        (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                        • #87
                          and that too, somehow...

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