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  • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
    I know that weapon it's called cenzorship.
    We have democracy and we talk what we know as truth ,but of course the truth must be accepted by "moderator" ,just like the "true" version of history must to be approved by Putin,if Litwinienko or someone else try to write something ...
    No, it's not censorship. It's following of rules of the forum.

    As for Putin, Bush, Blair, Pilsudsky, Kachinsky politics you are free to discuss this one anywhere else. there are plenty of other fields for this....

    Your version of history is incorrect because you paid no attention to prove it making loud, but empty statements to be your main weapon.
    You are free to prove it in proper thread, but you even didn't make an attempt preferrfin to offtop here...
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
      Couldn't you say that these "necessary" purges were counter-revolutionary in nature?...
      yes, i would say that the ''purges'' were supposed to stop bolshevism from spreading around the globe.
      -
      Last edited by stalin; 21 May 07, 06:52.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
        Well, Churchill said that he was ready to make a pact with the devil to defeat the Nazis.
        Yes, he did say so. And in certain ways Stalin (or rather the whole system that existed in USSR) was very unhuman.
        But you got to agree that the Churchill's statement also tell a lot about the author too.

        The problem is that often people demand from Stalin moral behaviour. But they dod not realise that practicaly none of the big politics are ruled by the moral law. Unfortunately so!
        Kind regards
        Igor

        * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
        * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
        * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

        Comment


        • Originally posted by stalin View Post
          You are way too harsh with Communism, though. Communism can not be condemned - because, first of all, it wasn't defeated the way Nazism was. ...the victors are not to be judged, see.
          Condemnation and defeat are two separate and distinct things. As to victors being judged, Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan won, but they're somewhat judged as cruel tyrants too.

          I think we need to separate Russia and Communism. You guys seem to want to keep them together as some sort of 'glory days' of the Soviet Empire.

          And the warnings issued here (and note the colour) are just out of order and smack of the worst excesses of Stalinist censorship.
          Last edited by General Staff; 21 May 07, 09:17.
          Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
          (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
            Once the Nazis were defeated, and the Soviets were the main contributors (make no doubt about it, the eastern front was the decisive front), nobody would dare to ask how things were actually run in that state. Well, not until the Western powers noticed how people were treated in countries liberated by the Soviets...
            Exactly. The Western democracies could never ever have countenanced the level of casualties suffered by the Soviets. Look at Japanese strategy on Iwo Jima/Okinawa++. Make it too costly- it would have worked except for the Atomic Bomb.

            You could argue it was the ultimate Capitalist plot- we'll provide the resources, you the manpower or blood. After all the Soviets had had their GULAG system in operation for a fair time, and were used to throwing individuals at problems- or just liquidating them anyway- regardless of casualties.

            And Katyn- and I'm sorry but I believe Soviet sources now admit to this- just shows they didn't care what nationality you were. Or German or Japanese (and especially how did they deserve their treatment since they'd left the USSR alone) POWs after WWII.
            Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
            (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by General Staff View Post
              Condemnation and defeat are two separate and distinct things. As to victors being judged, Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan won, but they're somewhat judged as cruel tyrants too...
              sorry, but - to judge attilas and genghis khans on the ground of them being a ''cruel tyrants'' - means to hold the whole historical process in enormous contempt.

              why not condemn, right away - all these attilas and genghis khans for, for instance, not using a deodorant for them armpits?

              the democrats and liberals seem to always deny the existance of such thing as historical context!
              and the leaders like stalin, hitler and mao fall a victims to that tendency.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                the democrats and liberals seem to always deny the existance of such thing as historical context!
                and the leaders like stalin, hitler and mao fall a victims to that tendency.
                You mean Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Attila, Genghis Khan etc. were not responsible for what they did, but historical circumstances made them act that way?

                (this soon becomes a discussion about philosophy of history, if we are not careful )
                “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                Comment


                • Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                  ... The Western democracies could never ever have countenanced the level of casualties suffered by the Soviets...
                  more likely, the western democracies could never countenance the fact that the soviet union spread its influence over the half of europe.

                  as for the casualties,
                  unfortunately - the western allies failed to demonstrate us their know-how as to how to wage war against ''wehrmacht'' and at the same time have no high casualties.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
                    You mean Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Attila, Genghis Khan etc. were not responsible for what they did, but historical circumstances made them act that way?...
                    to say - stalin, hitler and mao were not responsible - would be unjust,
                    since - they deliberately took on a responsibility.

                    whereas - to claim attila and g.khan were ''responsible'' is just ridiculous,
                    since - in their time period, it was unavoidable for any leader to be ''responsible''.
                    responsibility meant dignity then.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                      to say - stalin, hitler and mao were not responsible -
                      whereas - to claim attila and g.khan were ''responsible'' is just ridiculous,
                      since - in their time period, it was unavoidable for any leader to be ''responsible''.
                      responsibility meant dignity then.
                      I must say that is an interesting view. Might it have something to do with the fact that Russia was under Mongol (or their descendants) rule when most of Europe experienced Renaissance?
                      Last edited by Sheik Yerbouti; 21 May 07, 12:26.
                      “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                        More likely, the western democracies could never countenance the fact that the Soviet Union spread its influence over...half of Europe.

                        as for the casualties,
                        unfortunately - the western allies failed to demonstrate us their know-how as to how to wage war against ''wehrmacht'' and at the same time have no high casualties.
                        Countenance? Who could blame us? After what the Soviet Union or Communism- as distinct from the Russians- did in the pieces they did get? Or North Korea? Last I heard that was the last Stalinist holdout.

                        As to your second point- well if assaults along the line of what happened in the Winter War (forget the Wehrmacht for a moment) are any indication, we don't need or want that 'know-how'. The war in the west worked out, what with Strategic Bombing and allowing the Soviet Union to bleed itself of several hundred thousand individuals in the assault on Berlin- what with the personal ambitions of Zhukov and Chuikov pitted against each other.

                        If it had come to a fight between the Western Democracies and the Soviet Union- and nuclear weapons aside- all we'd have to do is look to the examples of Finland in contrast to the other Baltic States in 1939 and what came afterwards for each of them. Then just fight. As a Russian up against a threat like that from a totalitarian regime like Communism or Fascism you'd probably fight too.
                        Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                        (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
                          I must say that is an interesting view. Might it have something to do with the fact that Russia was under Mongol (or their descendants) rule when most of Europe experienced Renaissance?
                          Hehee, and how whould you judge the Renaissance period? As the glorious and prosperous time? Something tells me you feel it was a such a good time to live in in Europe, right?
                          Kind regards
                          Igor

                          * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                          * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                          * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                            Or German or Japanese (and especially how did they deserve their treatment since they'd left the USSR alone) POWs after WWII.
                            So what is the storry about the German POWs in USSR? Tell me, please.

                            I already had a chance to discuss someones statement that Russians repaid many times over to the German POW.
                            Kind regards
                            Igor

                            * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                            * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                            * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                              ... Who could blame us? After what the Soviet Union or Communism...did in the pieces they did get?...
                              and what especially bad - the soviet union did there?


                              Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                              ... The war in the west worked out, what with Strategic Bombing and allowing the Soviet Union to bleed itself of several hundred thousand individuals in the assault on Berlin...
                              strategic bombing?
                              come on, if that would have been enough - why wait till red army takes berlin?
                              bomb the city and sign a pact with surrendered nazis!


                              Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                              ... If it had come to a fight between the Western Democracies and the Soviet Union- and nuclear weapons aside- all we'd have to do is look to the examples of Finland...Then just fight...
                              nah...
                              that wouldn't have been so simply - this time.
                              the red army prior and after ww2 are completely different matters.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                                Hehee, and how whould you judge the Renaissance period? As the glorious and prosperous time? Something tells me you feel it was a such a good time to live in in Europe, right?
                                No, no, the point was that the rest of Europe didn't experience Mongol rule. That could explain the view that there were not any dignified leaders back in those times. I'm just trying to understand stalin's post here.
                                “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                                Comment

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