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OT: Trotsky

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  • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
    ... About off topic : tell me how can we talk about Trotsky without talking about communism?...
    offtopic is not that you talk of trotsky as of communist.
    offtopic is the overall tone of the statements you make.
    just cool it down a bit and make your point of view more clear to us.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by amvas View Post
      my moderator's weaponry against such ones...

      Regards,
      Alex

      It's the last warning!
      I know that weapon it's called cenzorship.
      We have democracy and we talk what we know as truth ,but of course the truth must be accepted by "moderator" ,just like the "true" version of history must to be approved by Putin,if Litwinienko or someone else try to write something ...
      Guerrero contra marxismo

      Comment


      • Originally posted by stalin View Post
        offtopic is not that you talk of trotsky as of communist.
        offtopic is the overall tone of the statements you make.
        just cool it down a bit and make your point of view more clear to us.
        Yes,but when we try to talk about Trotsky we must talk about whole communist regime from 1917 till 1989,because Trotsky was one of architects of regime,and after a little time became a product of it.
        That's why we cannot cut Trotsky from communism .
        Guerrero contra marxismo

        Comment


        • Originally posted by stalin View Post
          communism can not be condemned - because, first of all, it wasn't defeated the way nazism was.
          also, without communists they wouldn't have defeated nazis.
          and the victors are not to be judged, see.
          _
          Very true. In a sense Hitler's invasion was a blessing in disguise for the bolshevists, as long as it could be defeated. It guaranteed western support for the Soviets both in military and political matters. The western powers could always be fooled to allow Soviet sphere of influence spread through the Eastern Europe. Once the Nazis were defeated, and the Soviets were the main contributors (make no doubt about it, the eastern front was the decisive front), nobody would dare to ask how things were actually run in that state. Well, not until the Western powers noticed how people were treated in countries liberated by the Soviets...
          “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

          Comment


          • Guys, just to make qa freindly gesture towards Bartek. At least he names a almost correct number of deported wrom the Western Ukrain and BElorussia before the 22.06.1941 - 325.000 people.

            It is VERY common that people use the old folklore numbers of 2 million.
            And also claim that they all died in Siberia.

            Best regards
            Igor Korenev
            Kind regards
            Igor

            * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
            * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
            * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
              ... cenzorship. We have democracy and we talk what we know as truth...
              internet forums and democracy are incompatible matters.
              democracy means anarchy, in this case, and you know it.
              still want democracy??
              go to a local pub, then.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                Yes,but when we try to talk about Trotsky we must talk about whole communist regime from 1917 till 1989,because Trotsky was one of architects of regime,and after a little time became a product of it.
                That's why we cannot cut Trotsky from communism .
                In my understanding Trotsky's understanding of communism was very different from what was in USSR and other east european countries.
                Kind regards
                Igor

                * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
                  Very true. In a sense Hitler's invasion was a blessing in disguise for the bolshevists, as long as it could be defeated. It guaranteed western support for the Soviets both in military and political matters. The western powers could always be fooled to allow Soviet sphere of influence spread through the Eastern Europe. Once the Nazis were defeated, and the Soviets were the main contributors (make no doubt about it, the eastern front was the decisive front), nobody would dare to ask how things were actually run in that state. Well, not until the Western powers noticed how people were treated in countries liberated by the Soviets...
                  I would not have such a low opinion about the "western powers". I do not think they were little bebies and could be "fooled" so easily.
                  Was not it a mutual ritual dance where each side tried to play the leading role?

                  Regards
                  Igor
                  Kind regards
                  Igor

                  * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                  * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                  * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                    ... when we try to talk about Trotsky we must talk about whole communist regime from 1917 till 1989,because Trotsky was one of architects of regime...That's why we cannot cut Trotsky from communism .
                    yes, we can.
                    the whole idea of communism was changed when stalin stepped in and conducted the necessary ''purges''.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Swampwolf View Post
                      It had warcrimes more heinous than any by European powers of the same era. The North issued an order giving soldiers the 'right to rape' in occupied New Orleans, prisoners were starved on purpose, partisans and their families were executed, even old men who did not acquiesce to occupation forces' dictums were hung or imprisoned. The spirit of the people who started the war (abolitionists) was very similar to early Bolshevism, as best expressed by the ruthless Trotsky.
                      I see the old myth about North and South is still very much alive. I think I'm not exaggerating if I say that I'm one of the most knowledgeable people in Finland about South and her treatment during and after the civil war, since its my field of specialty. All I'm going to say is that never in the history of civil wars (before or after) has the losing side been treated so leniently. I know this runs against the traditional tales of Southern mythology, but what you gonna do? It's like telling a Stalin-fan that the guy wasn't that noble in his deeds...or a Hitler-fan that the Holocaust really happened.
                      “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                        I would not have such a low opinion about the "western powers".
                        Well, Churchill said that he was ready to make a pact with the devil to defeat the Nazis.
                        “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
                          ... Once the Nazis were defeated, and the Soviets were the main contributors...nobody would dare to ask how things were actually run in that state...not until the Western powers noticed how people were treated in countries liberated by the Soviets...
                          the ''western'' powers seem to ''notice'' only a small cases of ''mistreatment'',
                          whereas a huge genocides may well slip their attention.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                            the ''western'' powers seem to ''notice'' only a small cases of ''mistreatment'',
                            whereas a huge genocides may well slip their attention.
                            I have to agree here.
                            “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                              A FIGURE OF MURDERED JEWS WAS NOT PROVED BY III REICH ARCHIVES.
                              CRIMEFUL STATES HIDE THEIR CRIMES VERY DEEP.
                              Don't shout on me. This will not make your arguments more believable.

                              Btw, German documents are in very good state. They tried to fix everyhitng even murder.

                              Also NKVD archives are also very exact and you have no any alternative for using of them like you this, or not. Another thing they are not opened all. but this is resolvable with time...
                              Otehrwise you can use only loud voice which can't be accepted by serious researchers as real argument
                              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                                yes, we can.
                                the whole idea of communism was changed when stalin stepped in and conducted the necessary ''purges''.
                                Couldn't you say that these "necessary" purges were counter-revolutionary in nature? After all, they guaranteed that there would be only one man in charge.
                                “To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed…” -1984 about the Big Lie

                                Comment

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