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OT: Trotsky

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  • #91
    And the American Civil War also had mass executions ,labour camps,thousands imprisoned engineerings,doctors,lawyers ?
    It had warcrimes more heinous than any by European powers of the same era. The North issued an order giving soldiers the 'right to rape' in occupied New Orleans, prisoners were starved on purpose, partisans and their families were executed, even old men who did not acquiesce to occupation forces' dictums were hung or imprisoned. The spirit of the people who started the war (abolitionists) was very similar to early Bolshevism, as best expressed by the ruthless Trotsky.

    For the same reason nobody wearing at the street the T-Shirt with Adolf Hitler or Heinrich Himmler,but a lot people wearing the T-Shirts with Trotsky or Che Guevara.
    Those are different than the people here admiring Stalin. The only ones who admire Trotsky and Che Guevara are people who are discontented with their own countries or who just want to **** people off. Trotskyites are the most irrational bunch out there, which is appropriate since he was the man who would have unleashed horror worse than Stalin if he could have. Trotsky truly believed in hanging every last capitalist (or anyone that could be defined as a capitalist or too Bourgeouse). He was more like Mao, who killed his own colleagues and sixty million Chinese in the cultural revolution.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by General Staff View Post
      ... both will be judged and eventually...condemned by history. The first (Nazism) as a crime against particular races and peoples, the second (Communism) against humanity as a whole...
      you are way too harsh with communism, though.
      communism can not be condemned - because, first of all, it wasn't defeated the way nazism was.
      also, without communists they wouldn't have defeated nazis.
      and the victors are not to be judged, see.
      _
      Last edited by stalin; 21 May 07, 00:55.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Bartek View Post
        ... Communists murdered 250 000 000 of people and started a lot of wars ( WW II,Korean War,Vietnam War...Africa,Middle East,Afganistan, Nicaragua etc)...
        don't forget, that communists - also started the war in iraq,
        crucified Christ and drove dinosaurs to extinction.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Bartek View Post
          Nazism was condemned as crime,communism not .
          Why ?
          Because Nazi ideology is criminal one, communist - not.
          Criminal were some ways of implementation of communist ideas. That's one of the main difference...

          seems I need to close this thread soon...
          Large offtop disputes are not in my interest
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Bartek View Post
            ....
            Nazists murdered 50 000 000 people and started only one war ( WW II ),so nazism was a crime.Communists murdered 250 000 000 of people and started a lot of wars ( WW II,Korean War,Vietnam War,a small ,but cruel wars at Africa,Middle East,Afganistan, Nicaragua etc) ,so the comunism is not a crime,but a BRAVE NEW WORLD.
            Lenin wrote about "useful idiots",they are still alive.
            Well... It's not a subject of this topic the number of murdered people.
            In any case, as your figures are not supported with any proofs I need to make notice ty, that you need at least to mention sources which you use to blame the others...

            I never thought communists to start WWII
            Wars in Africa were inspired by local authorities and supported by both sides (USSR, USA and other players). So, I see no reasons for apologising.
            War in Afghanistan was an attempt of preventive blow against Islamic terrorists, which that time were only beginning their actions.
            Support of our western "friends" of those anti-Soviet movements led to their growth and finally to 9/11 tragedy... So, again, I fell no reasons to apologises for Afghanistan.

            For the first case -WARNING ty... for unproved and provocative claims...
            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by amvas View Post
              ... seems I need to close this thread soon...
              Large offtop disputes are not in my interest
              sometimes, the ''offtop'' helps to clarify certain matters.
              especially - in forums like this.
              see, the ww2 is becoming more of a political, civilisational and moral issue nowadays.
              and it is very important to always stay informed as to all these myths concerning the soviet union/eastern front.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by stalin View Post
                you are way too harsh with communism, though.
                communism can not be condemned - because, first of all, it wasn't defeated the way nazism was.
                also, without communists they wouldn't have defeated nazis.
                and the victors are not to be judged, see.
                _
                Very clever,communists started The Second World War together with nazists,but only nazist are to be blamed .
                Stalin had formed 5 ( five ) Airborne Corps to defend Russia 21 000 tanks to defend Russia ,for Hitler's 3 500 enough would be no more than 2 000 ,especially like T-34 and KW-1.
                For communists the global war was unnecessary,for worldwide revolution.
                Guerrero contra marxismo

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by amvas View Post
                  Because Nazi ideology is criminal one, communist - not.
                  Yes,You are right,nazists killed 50 000 000 people and it was a crime,communists killed 250 000 000 and it was only statistics.
                  About off topic : tell me how can we talk about Trotsky without talking about communism ?
                  It's like talking about holocaust without talking about Himmler.
                  Guerrero contra marxismo

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by stalin View Post
                    sometimes, the ''offtop'' helps to clarify certain matters.
                    especially - in forums like this.
                    see, the ww2 is becoming more of a political, civilisational and moral issue nowadays.
                    and it is very important to always stay informed as to all these myths concerning the soviet union/eastern front.
                    The myths ? The invasion of Poland at 17 of September 1939 is a myth ?
                    The execution of 14 000 Polish officers is a myth also ?
                    The deportation of 300 000 war refugees from Western Poland,who were been seized by RKKA at Eastern Poland to Siberia is a myth too ?
                    Ribbentrop - Molotov treaty is a myth ?
                    Yes ,there are a lot of myths about Russia,especially one ,that Soviet Russia was the victim of WW II .
                    Guerrero contra marxismo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                      1) To the first Q, I've heard of Katyn. I'd like to know more of the others. Please post details.
                      2) Trotsky. Clever. Whatever you think of him- and please post that too- he undoubtedly was clever. His writings clearly show a fairly incisive intellect, even if it was used in the wrong direction or for the wrong purposes.
                      3) Al Capone. Come on, you have to admire someone who says "Vote early, vote often" or "Bolshevism is knocking at our gates, we can't afford to let it in. We must keep America whole and safe and unspoiled. We must keep the worker away from red literature and red ruses; we must see that his mind remains healthy.".
                      4) And if my child was on death's door, Doctor Mengele would be welcome in my house as a doctor if he's there to help not harm. Wouldn't he be also in yours too?
                      Ad1) Yes,You have heard because You are interesting at history,but I 'm talking about people who are not interested at history so much as You.
                      Ad2)Yes
                      Ad3) I think that under the rules of bolshevism Al Capone would very fast appear as aNKVD Kombryg Alosza Capone
                      Ad4)Because You are Irishman ,not Jew,Russian or Polish.
                      Guerrero contra marxismo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                        The myths ? The invasion of Poland at 17 of September 1939 is a myth ?
                        The execution of 14 000 Polish officers is a myth also ?
                        The deportation of 300 000 war refugees from Western Poland,who were been seized by RKKA at Eastern Poland to Siberia is a myth too ?
                        Ribbentrop - Molotov treaty is a myth ?
                        Yes ,there are a lot of myths about Russia,especially one ,that Soviet Russia was the victim of WW II .
                        I think you are a victim of many Polish myths..

                        i) Execution of 14,000 Polish officers is still not proved by Soviet archives.
                        So, this subject is VERY disputable. At least in two fields:
                        1. Exact figures
                        2. how much were executed by NKVD and how much by Nazis.
                        As information about this event is known mostly by German sources I have MUCH doubts Dr. Goebbels told only the truth about this.
                        So, I'm asking not to spread this subject until it's clarified better...

                        ii) Deportation of POles from Western Byelorussia and Ukraine simply saved their lifes. If not, local non-Polish inhabitants simply would kill many of them, so they were angry for Polish pre-war politics towards Ukrainiand and Byelorussians.
                        So, not everything is so simple, as you thought...
                        And those deportated people were not executed like Nasis often did...

                        iii) Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty is not a myth, but many myths are around it.
                        Taking this documents separately from political events you get incorrect picture of situation. It was signed when soviet leaders noticed low interest of Britain and USA to make analogues treaty. So, Stalin and Co. needed to do something. Yes, to my mind it was wrong decision to sign this treaty. but that time nobody could be sure in this. It's good now to judge decisions maden more than 65 years ago and knowning the follwed events. But in 1939 there were definite aims and definite instruments tor esolve problems of that time.

                        iv) And for rejecting subject that Russia was a vitim in WWII I makes you ANOTHER Warning
                        The USSR did become a vitim of Nazi aggression and there are nobody to disaprove the fact it were Nazi troops to cross Soviet borders on June 22'41 and not Soviet....
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                          Yes,You are right,nazists killed 50 000 000 people and it was a crime,communists killed 250 000 000 and it was only statistics.
                          And Poles killed 1,000,000,000....
                          And try to dsiprove this earlier than I agree with your figures
                          Don't make me angry with your unproved claims!

                          About off topic : tell me how can we talk about Trotsky without talking about communism ?
                          It's like talking about holocaust without talking about Himmler.
                          When you speak about Trotsky, you have to speak about 1920s years. Later he left the USSR and had no influence on the inland life.
                          So, you can speak about his role in constructing the soviet Army and Soviet state, but can't say anything about his role in later events.
                          Trotsky followers (real, or fictive) played no role in further life of the USSR and development of its ideology (except repressions, subject of which they became).
                          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                          Comment


                          • Well, boys...
                            I know that our Polish friends have own version of all the historical events worldwide (especially about Russian role in them).
                            I also know many of fighters have absolute different points of view on those events
                            So, I suggest all of those, who blames Russia (or USSR, or Germany, or anybody else) to prove point of view and not to blame oppnents with absolute fantastic and unproved figures and statements...

                            If you don't hear me, I'll need to use my moderator's weaponry against such ones...

                            Regards,
                            Alex

                            It's the last warning!
                            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by amvas View Post
                              I think you are a victim of many Polish myths..

                              i) Execution of 14,000 Polish officers is still not proved by Soviet archives.
                              So, this subject is VERY disputable. At least in two fields:
                              1. Exact figures
                              2. how much were executed by NKVD and how much by Nazis.
                              As information about this event is known mostly by German sources I have MUCH doubts Dr. Goebbels told only the truth about this.
                              So, I'm asking not to spread this subject until it's clarified better...
                              A FIGURE OF MURDERED JEWS WAS NOT PROVED BY III REICH ARCHIVES.
                              CRIMEFUL STATES HIDE THEIR CRIMES VERY DEEP.
                              Guerrero contra marxismo

                              Comment


                              • Back to Trotsky.
                                Trotsky was one of the architects and builders of soviet regime.
                                Talking about him without talking about Soviet Russia and communism is pointless just like talking about SA-Fuhrer Ernst Rohm without talking about Adolf Hitler and III Reich.
                                Guerrero contra marxismo

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