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  • Yes? So, what "Prawda" wrote about this?

    BTW, "if facts are against us, .. the worst for facts" - like our red friends are used to say.
    Regards
    - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
    - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
    (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

    Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

    Comment


    • in fact, everyone in this world says so.
      however, give us some real facts - at last !

      Comment


      • What did You expect? Documents? Go to nearest FSB/NKWD archives.
        Mass graves? Maybe this help -

        [email protected], how many people were deported from West Ukrain and West Belorussia (White Russia) /you called those territories for east Poland/ in 1939-1941 according to your source?
        Yes because it was Poland to 1945 in fact.
        Maybe this article answer you:

        The most conservative Polish count, based on Soviet documents, is as follows: 140 000 during the first, 60 000 during the second, 80 000 during the third, and 40 000 Polish citizens, mainly from the Wilno area, during the fourth deportation for a grand total of 320 000 persons. These Soviet figures, even if accurate (and some scholars question their veracity), do not give a complete picture of that horrendous Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign aimed against Polish citizens. If to add to them the various other deportations, smaller in scale, resulting in the displacement of civilians, prisoners of war, and people arrested for political reasons and detained in the prisons of Eastern Poland, about half of whom were eventually deported to Soviet forced-labour camps, one will arrive at 400 000 to 500 000 as the grand total of those deported using the Soviet documents as our point of departure.

        By including voluntary workers, those who fled in June/July 1941, Red Army draftees, and other such categories one arrives at approximately 750 000 to 780 000 as the total number of Polish citizens who found themselves in the Soviet Union during the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland. Earlier estimates of well-known historians provide figures ranging from 1.2 to 1.7 million (including 385 000 children).

        Ethnic Poles, an overall minority in Eastern Poland, constituted the majority of those deported, but no social and professional category, or ethnic minority group was spared. The social and professional categories included workers, artisans, peasants, foresters, police and military personnel, judges, clergy, professors, scientists, attorneys, teachers, doctors, engineers. Anyone listed in the index of "anti-Soviet elements" could have been deported and many were. The minority groups included: Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Lithuanians and others. As can be seen, among these masses of deportees were also the "oppressed minorities" that Stalin came to rescue from "Polish oppression" - his official excuse for the invasion of Poland. The Soviet line, that at least those deported were saved and spared the horrors of war, rings hollow in light of places like Katyn, the conditions of life obtaining in the sprawling network of various Soviet detention camps, and in the Gulag where they suffered untold misery, and where so many of them perished in circumstances defying description.

        Political prisoners kept in Eastern Poland constituted yet another category of deportees. Thousands of such prisoners perished in the course of the Soviet occupation and, according to Soviet documents, at least 10 000 were slaughtered in local jails on the eve of the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Those, who were not killed, and they numbered into the thousands as well, were evacuated with the retreating Red Army - many of them were executed later.

        In spite of the Soviet directives for a well-orchestrated mass exodus, the deportation process left much to be desired. Lists of those to be deported were drawn up on the basis of information provided by collaborators from among the ethnic minorities, including the Jews and Ukrainians. Long trains consisting of boxcars stood waiting at the railway stations. In towns and villages, columns of trucks along with wagons and in winter, sleights - requisitioned from the peasants - stood ready. Soviet army units, as well as the NKVD and the local militia very often composed of Jews and Ukrainians awaited orders. And when they came - regardless of weather conditions or time of day or rather night - city quarters and villages were surrounded and forcible entries made into peoples' homes. At gunpoint, the inhabitants were given from ten minutes to two hours to pack their belongings and then driven or made to walk to the nearest railway station.

        The destination of the exiled Polish citizens was the northern, central and eastern regions of the Soviet Union - between the Arctic Circle in the north and the Mongolian border in the south - Arkhangelsk, Komi and Kolyma regions, Siberia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. Some ended up in prisons or in penal, POW, "special", concentration, or forced-labour camps; others were dumped into remote settlements; and still others wound up in kolkhozes (Soviet collective farms). They lived, or rather suffered, in 2800 locations in fifty six Soviet oblasti (districts). Their fate was the same, wherever they were sent: slave labour in exchange for the barest necessities of life. And they died by the thousands, or rather by tens of thousands of cold, hunger and disease.
        Tadeusz PIOTROWSKI
        Professor in University of New Hampshire at Manchester
        - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
        - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
        (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

        Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

        Comment


        • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
          What did You expect? Documents? Go to nearest FSB/NKWD archives.
          Mass graves? Maybe this help -
          Not very impressive picture...
          I can guess about 50 dead bodies plus some crosses. I can't say those crosses were not over the burials of earlier periods.
          Btw, for you know that in 1920-1930s hunger took place also in several territories of Russia and not only in Ukraine?
          Also, do you know that such horrible thing for many times took place in Russia BEFORE communists?
          Yes, communists were to some degree responsible to that hunger which took place in the USSR. No doubts... But lets not to overestimate this fact...
          Our Ukrainian friends now are sure it was genocide of Ukrainians. I'm not ready to support this point of view just taking into account facts cited above.

          Well... When two Poles appears anywhere at least one anti-Russian opinion appears... I myself have some Poles among my noble and not noble ancestors, but I'm not ready to support such a policy...

          I always am surprised how Poles are sure lands of Western Ukraine and western byelorussia were occupied by Soviets, while in reality those lands were occupied by Poland in the course of aggression against Soviet Russia in 1920. So, those lands were simply returned by Soviet back using suitable moment in 1939 when Poland had...khm... some troubles with Germans. (Poland itself used similar moment to take some lands from Czechoslovakia in 1938 using similar moment of history for CZ.)

          As you said ethnic Poles were minority on the territories of Western Ukraine and Byelorussia and their relations with other ethnic groups were far from ideal. Deportation of ~300,000 of Poles (I assume this figure is quite believable) saved them from possible carnage Ukrainians and Byelorussians were ready to do themselves. How it could be you can easily see on the sample of Western Ukraine, when under Germans many thousands of Poles were cut off by Ukrainian nationalists. I have no figures at hand about percentage of death among deported Poles (It’s not my subject), but it was not higher than this one among other nations (including Russians), who became subject of Stalin repressions.
          Drafting to the Red Army was organic to all territories of the Soviet Union and there were absolutely no reasons why not to do the same in Western Ukraine & Byelorussia. So, nothing to blame here. Many of those soldiers, recruited in 1941 from W/Ukraine and W/Byelorussia later were moved out of service because of low morale and large percents of deserters in those units.
          Germans also drafted Austrians and inhabitants of Alsace and Lorraine (btw the latter didn’t showed high morale in fights against the USSR), and nobody see any criminal in those…

          I’m not going to continue this discussion. The reasons are the next:
          It’s off-top in off-top topic
          Because I have giant lack of time and I’m going to spend it for more useful things than for useless disputes
          Because we have no chances to agree here and searching for materials (which I have in my huge collection) and writing long messages takes much time, which is more important for me (see also previous reason) than proving something to one-two fellows.

          Regards,
          Alex
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
            ... The most conservative Polish count, based on Soviet documents...Ethnic Poles, an overall minority in Eastern Poland...
            you guys now seem to ''base'' whatever bull$hit you can - on almost anything.
            and what is ''eastern poland'', eh ? - western ukraine and belorussia, maybe ?
            and maybe - all those ''ethnic poles'' were, in fact, bandits and insurgents ?

            Moderator WARNING

            Plz, don't make too wide generalizations. I know, it's hard to speak with many Poles, but it's not a reason to insult the whole nation...

            Regards,
            Alex AMVAS
            Last edited by amvas; 01 Jun 07, 12:37.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
              What did You expect? Documents? Go to nearest FSB/NKWD archives.

              Yes because it was Poland to 1945 in fact.
              Maybe this article answer you:

              The most conservative Polish count, based on Soviet documents, is as follows: 140 000 during the first, 60 000 during the second, 80 000 during the third, and 40 000 Polish citizens, mainly from ...
              Tadeusz PIOTROWSKI
              Professor in University of New Hampshire at Manchester
              No it does not answer me. I preffer this one: Raport "Indeksu Represjonowanych" ukazuje się pod patronatem i ze środków Instytutu Pamięci Narodowej - Komisji ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu

              And here is the summary table from the page PODSUMOWANIE:
              Last edited by Egorka; 01 Jun 07, 03:06.
              Kind regards
              Igor

              * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
              * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
              * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

              Comment


              • Originally posted by amvas View Post
                Not very impressive picture...
                I can guess about 50 dead bodies plus some crosses. I can't say those crosses were not over the burials of earlier periods.
                Well, I never see 6.000.000 bodies on one photo, so holocaust never hapend? Poor argumentation.


                Btw, for you know that in 1920-1930s hunger took place also in several territories of Russia and not only in Ukraine?
                Also, do you know that such horrible thing for many times took place in Russia BEFORE communists?
                Yes, communists were to some degree responsible to that hunger which took place in the USSR. No doubts... But lets not to overestimate this fact...
                Yes, I agree. Rusians suffer greatly under communists, so I wonder why You defend them so much?

                Our Ukrainian friends now are sure it was genocide of Ukrainians. I'm not ready to support this point of view just taking into account facts cited above.
                6-7 milions deaths is similar to 6 milions in holocaust. We can discus about reason not facts.

                Well... When two Poles appears anywhere at least one anti-Russian opinion appears... I myself have some Poles among my noble and not noble ancestors, but I'm not ready to support such a policy...
                Well, I like Rusians too, but not neonazis, like :
                Originally posted by Stalin
                you guys now seem to ''base'' whatever bull$hit you can - on almost anything.
                and what is ''eastern poland'', eh ? - western ukraine and belorussia, maybe ?
                and maybe - all those ''ethnic poles'' were, in fact, bandits and insurgents ?
                I always am surprised how Poles are sure lands of Western Ukraine and western byelorussia were occupied by Soviets, while in reality those lands were occupied by Poland in the course of aggression against Soviet Russia in 1920. So, those lands were simply returned by Soviet back using suitable moment in 1939 when Poland had...khm... some troubles with Germans. (Poland itself used similar moment to take some lands from Czechoslovakia in 1938 using similar moment of history for CZ.)
                Reasons why:
                Eastern Poland, Yes in fact ethnic Bielorusia and Ukraine, was part of Poland state. This fact was not changed till Potsdam conferency in 1945. So, we Talk about facts.

                using suitable moment in 1939 when Poland had...khm... some troubles with Germans.
                Yes, Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. And this is main argument for acuse Soviets on start World War 2 together with Germany, what Bartek wrote before.
                Without this pact, Hitler would never atack Poland.
                But in fact Hitler broke non-agression pact from 1934 before attack, Stalin never do the same, even the same, and 17 september 39 throw knife on back.
                Poland retake Zaolzie on Czechoslovaka, in diplomatic agreement signed by Benesh. I agree, that was wrong, but don't compare this.

                but it was not higher than this one among other nations (including Russians), who became subject of Stalin repressions.
                I never say that. All nations in soviet rule suffer. We accuse SOVIETs, not Rusians.

                Egorka. You'r right, I agree with this content.
                Last edited by amvas; 01 Jun 07, 12:14.
                - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
                - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
                (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

                Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

                Comment


                • Egorka. You'r right, I agree with this content.
                  I am glad we can find common ground!
                  Kind regards
                  Igor

                  * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                  * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                  * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                    ... We accuse SOVIETs, not Rusians...
                    and what so different from what soviets did - we, russians, ever done ?
                    you poles have always been a threat to our western borders.
                    you have always been a source of insurgency because of your own state's instability.
                    so, we were bound to have your problems fixed.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                      Well, I never see 6.000.000 bodies on one photo, so holocaust never hapend? Poor argumentation.
                      Not more poor than been used as a proof for 6,000,000 dead...
                      figures are proved by figures, but not by photos...

                      Yes, I agree. Rusians suffer greatly under communists, so I wonder why You defend them so much?
                      I defend communists only when I think they are not the only ones responsible for these, or that events.
                      I never defend them for their crimes. But lets weight those facts objectively and not to put all eggs in one basket and not to blame communists for all the evil...

                      6-7 milions deaths is similar to 6 milions in holocaust. We can discus about reason not facts.
                      I believe only to figures proved by Russian archives... you still didn't cite those...

                      Well, I like Rusians too, but not neonazis, like :
                      "Stalin" is not neo-nazist, but yes, his phrase is too provocative an incorrect... I'll remind him to keep forum rules...

                      Reasons why:
                      Eastern Poland, Yes in fact ethnic Bielorusia and Ukraine, was part of Poland state. This fact was not changed till Potsdam conferency in 1945. So, we Talk about facts.
                      And earlier they were a part of Russian Empire. The latest legal status of that territories was in the Russian Empire. Later they were occupied by Poland.

                      Yes, Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. And this is main argument for acuse Soviets on start World War 2 together with Germany, what Bartek wrote before.
                      Without this pact, Hitler would never atack Poland.
                      I wouldn't say Hitler were not going to attack Poland without pact. Simply because his main idea was movement to the East (against Russia). To do this he had to make a new border between Germany and the USSR. So, Poland had no chances to stay apart from this war...

                      But in fact Hitler broke non-agression pact from 1934 before attack, Stalin never do the same, even the same, and 17 september 39 throw knife on back.
                      There was no need in this, because that time POlish government had no power

                      Poland retake Zaolzie on Czechoslovaka, in diplomatic agreement signed by Benesh. I agree, that was wrong, but don't compare this.
                      In principle compatible...

                      I never say that. All nations in soviet rule suffer. We accuse SOVIETs, not Rusians.
                      Mistake of all foreign researchers of that period (and among them there are many my firnds) that they tries to take events of that period from standards of nowadays.
                      Yes, it was not democratic, it was brutal. But such was the time and we now can't say exactly how many people (Russians, Estonians, Ukrainians, Poles et.al....) became innocent subject of repressions, and how many really acted against the Soviet state (anti-state actions in any state is criminal, btw)

                      Ok, our off-top in off-top is spreading...

                      don't you think it's time to stop?
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • I think I'll close this thread...
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment

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