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crack or elite rifle div on western front on 22-06-41

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  • crack or elite rifle div on western front on 22-06-41

    hello everybody,

    here is moïse from www.campaigns-france.org the best french forum on panzercampaigns HPS series.

    I made a what if on Minsk 41 based on the map of Minsk 44.

    someone have information if some russian are crack, elite, or more experimented in 3rd, 4th, 10th and 13rd armies ?

    sorry for my bad bad english

    thanks a lot

    best regards

  • #2
    Originally posted by moise View Post
    hello everybody,

    here is moïse from www.campaigns-france.org the best french forum on panzercampaigns HPS series.

    I made a what if on Minsk 41 based on the map of Minsk 44.

    someone have information if some russian are crack, elite, or more experimented in 3rd, 4th, 10th and 13rd armies ?

    sorry for my bad bad english

    thanks a lot

    best regards
    I'm not sure if I got you correctly, or not, but I'll try to say something on the subject.

    On June 22 there were no units on the Western direction, which could be called "elite". We can speak only about units, which were better equipped than others.
    for example, the 6th Mechcorps/10th Army/Western Front had 1021-1131 tanks including 112-113 KVs and 238-239 T-34s.
    In comparison with, for example, 11th Mechanised Corps (241 tanks total including 3 KV, 28 T-34) the 6th Mechcorps was very strong force....Other mechcorps of the Western Front were much more weak than it.

    Speaking about later period we can distinguish the 1st Motorised Division, which fought on Berezina river against Guderian. It was real elite division.
    but it arrived only in early July from the Moscow region

    Regards,
    Alex
    Last edited by amvas; 30 Mar 07, 00:09.
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by amvas View Post
      Speaking about later period we can distinguish the 1st Motorised Division, which fought on Berezina river against Guderian. It was real elite division.
      but it arrived only in early July from the Moscow region
      The 1st Motorised Rifle Division

      Comment


      • #4
        The Soviet Guards units appeared after the first Soviet successful operation - the fights in the Yelnia Ledge in August, 1941.

        Before that the units differed by their training level, morale, amount of pesonnel in comparison to staff.

        Comment


        • #5
          thanks

          thanks at all of us,

          yes firts méca division is an elite div of 20th army, but I think at common rifle div like 100th rifle div of 13th army which resist and counter attacks two days againt panzergruppe 3 Hoth or 152rd rifle of 16 army ( smolensk) which was an elite div of transbaikal region.

          do you know other experimented units ?

          thanks

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Andrey View Post
            The 1st Motorised Rifle Division
            We disputed once about its name...

            In different documents it was called Motorised and Motorised Rifle division...
            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by moise View Post
              thanks at all of us,

              yes firts méca division is an elite div of 20th army,
              Initially it was in the 7th Mechinised Corps, but was transferred directly to the 20th Army.

              but I think at common rifle div like 100th rifle div of 13th army which resist and counter attacks two days againt panzergruppe 3 Hoth or 152rd rifle of 16 army ( smolensk) which was an elite div of transbaikal region.
              If I'm right together with the 100th RD there was the 161st RD of the same 2nd Rfl. Corps/13th Army.
              Can't say they were elite divisions. Probably they had more experienced commanders (the 100th RD took part in Winter war)...

              do you know other experimented units ?
              I have no ideas what kind of divisions you means under "experimented units"

              Regards,
              Alex
              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

              Comment


              • #8
                response

                yes i think is very hard to have search exprimented units and it's perhaps just a difference in a better experience commander. I made a mistake original name is firts motorized division ( not méca div) but it was the only one motorized to have a powerfull regimental tank ( 12th).

                bye

                thans for all

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by moise View Post
                  yes i think is very hard to have search exprimented units and it's perhaps just a difference in a better experience commander. I made a mistake original name is firts motorized division ( not méca div) but it was the only one motorized to have a powerfull regimental tank ( 12th).

                  bye

                  thans for all
                  Explain in details whay you mean "experimented". Amvas and I do not understand this of your terms.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    franglais... for experienced
                    “Die in peace my brothers, but die quietly, so that we hear nothing but the faintest echo of your suffering…”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by moise View Post
                      but it was the only one motorized to have a powerfull regimental tank ( 12th).

                      bye

                      thans for all
                      Really this division had the most powerful tank regiment, but it was not the single to have hundreds of tanks. (372 tanks)
                      See:
                      http://www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.c...03_05_1941.htm

                      81st MD/4th Mechcorps had 298 tanks
                      163rd MD/1st Mechicrs had ~254 tanks

                      No data for the 29th MD/6th Mechanised corps
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        foolish

                        yes compare 6th tanks corps ( 1022 tanks) and tanks of 13th reserve army ( 17 and 20rd tank corps i thinks ... less than 150 tanks. it's completely foolish

                        I don't understand when you read global military book only russian chief of section have radio ( 1/5 or 1/4) but when you read OOB like on armschair there is more than 50 % tanks have radio ( line tank and radio tank). are you agree with this fact ? or no ? if yes why russian attacks tanks was a little bit not co-ordinate ?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by moise View Post
                          yes compare 6th tanks corps ( 1022 tanks) and tanks of 13th reserve army ( 17 and 20rd tank corps i thinks ... less than 150 tanks. it's completely foolish
                          30 Mechanised corps were too much for RKKA. Industry simply couldn't give all tanks needed by staff.
                          In general the Red Army had too much understrengthened units filled with personnel, but with lack of arms, transport and commanders.

                          I don't understand when you read global military book only russian chief of section have radio ( 1/5 or 1/4) but when you read OOB like on armschair there is more than 50 % tanks have radio ( line tank and radio tank). are you agree with this fact ? or no ? if yes why russian attacks tanks was a little bit not co-ordinate ?
                          I made brief calculations using my copy of "Combat and numerical strength of RKKA on June 1'41"
                          It gave the next figures:
                          Line Radio % Radio
                          KV-1 370 100,00
                          KV-2 134 100,00
                          T-35 59 100,00
                          T-34 671 221 24,78
                          T-28 481 0,00
                          T-37 1933 388 16,72
                          T-38 1046 83 7,35
                          T-40 115 17 12,88
                          T-26 5370 3377 38,61
                          BT-2 580 0,00
                          BT-5 1289 399 23,64
                          BT-7 2560 1881 42,36
                          BT-7A 117 0,00
                          BT-7M 521 181 25,78
                          Other BT 5 0,00
                          Flamethrower and special tanks 1278 0,00
                          SP guns 28 0,00
                          15994 7110 30,77%

                          I omitted some rare modifications and took all KVs and T-35s to be equipped with radio. T-27 tankettes are not counted
                          As percent of flamethrower tanks with radio is unknown I took them as ordinary line tanks. So, 30% is approximate figure...
                          Did I forget to calculate something?

                          also, take into account Soviet radio stations were enough weak.

                          Regards,
                          Alex
                          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by moise View Post
                            yes compare 6th tanks corps ( 1022 tanks) and tanks of 13th reserve army ( 17 and 20rd tank corps i thinks ... less than 150 tanks. it's completely foolish

                            I don't understand when you read global military book only russian chief of section have radio ( 1/5 or 1/4) but when you read OOB like on armschair there is more than 50 % tanks have radio ( line tank and radio tank). are you agree with this fact ? or no ? if yes why russian attacks tanks was a little bit not co-ordinate ?
                            The mystery lies in the fact that only commanders had "radios", their underlings had "recievers", which far too many people "call" radios.

                            Comment

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