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The death notifications in USSR during WW2

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  • #46
    There were a few ways in which families were notified that I know of. One would be by the state, another would be when letters would simply stop coming from the front, which happened with my grandfather's brother. And lastly if a soldier whose friend dies goes to the family and tells them what happened, that is if they haven't gotten a notification or they were still hoping against hope when the letters stopped coming.
    "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
    "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
    "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Kunikov View Post
      There were a few ways in which families were notified that I know of. One would be by the state, another would be when letters would simply stop coming from the front, which happened with my grandfather's brother. And lastly if a soldier whose friend dies goes to the family and tells them what happened, that is if they haven't gotten a notification or they were still hoping against hope when the letters stopped coming.
      there was only ONE official way - Soviet Ministry of Defence (People Commissariat of Defence) sent to families official notification by mail. There was the net of Militatry Commissariat in the USSR, sometimes their chiefs themselves gave those notifications.

      There was no any differebce between party members and ordinary citizens.

      All the stories from friends, miss of letters and so on were unofficial methods to know about the fate of a soldier.

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      • #48
        Laws and real life had often only a passing connection in Soviet Union. No matter what the regulation prescribed, the fact is that deaths were not always notified. Given that party members were treated differently from common people in life it isn't that much of the stretch to think that it might have happened in death too.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
          Laws and real life had often only a passing connection in Soviet Union. No matter what the regulation prescribed, the fact is that deaths were not always notified. Given that party members were treated differently from common people in life it isn't that much of the stretch to think that it might have happened in death too.
          Yes. But concidering how few were the party members in the total population of USSR one can get an idea what the impact on the death notifications were - one or two tousand cases or so.

          Concider all other options when people in charge gave extra treatment (something that is not prescribed by official regulations) to the public. For example would it be unheard that a person in charge whould give something extra to a guy/family from the same little town he comes from? A person in charge being from national manority gives extra to his fellow national? A person in charge without a leg would assist more to an other invalid and provide him with more help than prescribed by formal regulation? There are NUMEROUS scenarious in real life like that. And this kind of "discrimination" based on the Communist membership was just a tiny brick in the big structure called LIFE.
          Kind regards
          Igor

          * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
          * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
          * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

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          • #50
            Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
            Laws and real life had often only a passing connection in Soviet Union. No matter what the regulation prescribed, the fact is that deaths were not always notified. Given that party members were treated differently from common people in life it isn't that much of the stretch to think that it might have happened in death too.
            It is not about getting additional sausage.

            There was the SYSTEM of how to inform people about the fate of their relatives-soldiers.

            I don't see HOW it was possible to do something better for party members.

            Lists of killed, died and missing were sent from units to superior headquarters. Hedquarters sent those lists to those who printed death notifications. I don't know exactly how it worked in details. I know that the death notifications were received by people from postmen.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Andrey View Post
              It is not about getting additional sausage.

              There was the SYSTEM of how to inform people about the fate of their relatives-soldiers.

              I don't see HOW it was possible to do something better for party members.

              Lists of killed, died and missing were sent from units to superior headquarters. Hedquarters sent those lists to those who printed death notifications. I don't know exactly how it worked in details. I know that the death notifications were received by people from postmen.
              Andrey put in a right manner. The official system for the notifications was not tailored to distinguish between the people. It worked as a michine (good or bad) for everyone. That is it.
              The rest is complexity of life.
              Kind regards
              Igor

              * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
              * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
              * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                there was only ONE official way - Soviet Ministry of Defence (People Commissariat of Defence) sent to families official notification by mail. There was the net of Militatry Commissariat in the USSR, sometimes their chiefs themselves gave those notifications.

                There was no any differebce between party members and ordinary citizens.

                All the stories from friends, miss of letters and so on were unofficial methods to know about the fate of a soldier.
                I never said anything about 'official' or 'unofficial' I simply stated how various people found out about their dead relatives.
                "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Kunikov View Post
                  I never said anything about 'official' or 'unofficial' I simply stated how various people found out about their dead relatives.
                  Look on the forst message of this thread.

                  In another forum ( http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.as...4&key=&#220574 ) a guy told me that "IIRC a dead soldiers family wasnt even notified of the death unless they were a party member."
                  So a Western author wrote the rubbish that ONLY Party members were notifed well about the fate of their relatives.

                  From the context it is seen it is about official notifications.
                  Last edited by Andrey; 25 May 07, 22:34.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                    So a Western author wrote the rubbish that ONLY Party members were notifed well about the fate of their relatives.

                    From the context it is seen it is about official notifications.
                    Well, obviously that's incorrect. I simply listed the various ways people might find out, that's all.
                    "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                    "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                    "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      To the point, death notifications of WWII are cpming even right now.

                      In WWII whole armies were encircled and destroyed.

                      So special groups of civilians-volunteers have been searching the former battlefields for the remnants of non-buried Soviet soldiers. Such groups are called "Poiskoviki" ("Searchers"). If they found remanats of a soldier they try to identify him. "Posmertny medallion" ("Death medallions") are the main source of the info about those soldiers. The "Poiskoviki" operate mainly in the regions of Rzhev and in St. Petersburg.

                      On May, 9th Russian TV showed about ceremonial burial of the remnants of a few soldiers which had been found nearly Rzhev recently. One of those soldiers was indentified due to his medallion. And Russian TV showed a granddaughter (a 45-50 years-old woman now) of the soldier. Russian Ministry of Defence found her, handed the death notification to her and invited her to the burial ceremony. The granddaughter was in that ceremony and she cried and spoke thank you to the people who helped her to know the place of her grandfather's grave...

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                      • #56
                        Ironically some of those death notifications may be sent out once the dna studies of the remains dug from under the trolley stop are complete.

                        IIRC just last month tens of remains found in the blue hills were given a proper burial.
                        Last edited by pp(est); 26 May 07, 03:12.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                          To the point, death notifications of WWII are cpming even right now.

                          In WWII whole armies were encircled and destroyed.

                          So special groups of civilians-volunteers have been searching the former battlefields for the remnants of non-buried Soviet soldiers. Such groups are called "Poiskoviki" ("Searchers"). If they found remanats of a soldier they try to identify him. "Posmertny medallion" ("Death medallions") are the main source of the info about those soldiers. The "Poiskoviki" operate mainly in the regions of Rzhev and in St. Petersburg.

                          On May, 9th Russian TV showed about ceremonial burial of the remnants of a few soldiers which had been found nearly Rzhev recently. One of those soldiers was indentified due to his medallion. And Russian TV showed a granddaughter (a 45-50 years-old woman now) of the soldier. Russian Ministry of Defence found her, handed the death notification to her and invited her to the burial ceremony. The granddaughter was in that ceremony and she cried and spoke thank you to the people who helped her to know the place of her grandfather's grave...
                          I saw the program, I'm glad there are people who are still out there looking for missing soldiers.
                          "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                          "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                          "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                            Fareasterner, you seem to be confusing several different countries and issues. However, I will gladly discuss with you any matter related to Estonia, (including the causality involved in occupying a country, committing atrocities and getting the population to hate you) if you wish, but please start another thread for it.

                            As to Hitler and Stalin not being allies, you can spin it any way you like. In my book, if two countries decide to divide territories of third countries between themselves, coordinate military and diplomatic actions to act on it and even arrange supply to each other then that is an alliance. If you've read material about Hitler published in Soviet Union in 1940 and early 1941 about Germany you'd have no doubt Soviet Union considered Germany its ally.
                            No they didnt consider them an ally. Call it an alliance if you want, but it really is no alliance. Hitler hated the communists. Stalin was expecting war by 42 or something wasnt he? They both knew they were going to be attacked. Yes, for some reason Stalin did not believe they were invading. That is believe they were invading that early. He did not expect it to come that early. Germany wouldnt attack their ally. Look at Japan, they signed that Axis Alliance, and they followed them in war. They did not abandon their ally.

                            Now the Soviet Union is a nation they hated. Maybe the Soviet Union did consider Germany it's ally, but the other did not consider them a real ally. Which I dont see how you can call it an alliance.
                            yeah!

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                            • #59
                              The western allies hated communists too, they had even sent troops to fight it during the Russian civil war. Still they allied with Stalin the minute Stalin's alliance with Hitler was broken and the alliance with Soviets broke almost as soon as the ink had dried on the German capitulation (actually preparations for the next war against Soviets were already being made by OSS and SIS). You don't have to be in love to have an alliance. Common (even if limited) interests suffice.


                              The first definition in the online dictionary is as follows:
                              a. A close association of nations or other groups, formed to advance common interests or causes:
                              b. A formal agreement establishing such an association, especially an international treaty of friendship.

                              The MRP was a formal agreement forming a close association between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia whereby the allies agreed to divide the countries between them and further agreed on economic and military cooperation then they acted upon their agreement. The alliance reflected immediately upon Soviet propaganda, even including schoolbooks. If you find Soviet propaganda material from 1940 and early 1941 it can be quite hilarious read.


                              Given the specific actions agreed and taken you could even argue it was more of an alliance than NATO is. Japan-German alliance was really not an alliance at all. It was just a piece of paper to offer moral support. Unlike the alliance with Soviet Union, the Japanese-German alliance produced no effective cooperation.
                              Last edited by pp(est); 28 May 07, 18:04.

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